I need computer help! Freezing Computer

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

OK, so I will not use the F11, correct? Just use the disks to avoid the garbage.

Can you explain what Fdisk is for future reference that these guys are talking about?

Also, EdWort has told me a few times that when he gets a new computer, e builds a partition and saves everything to that so when this happens it is no big deal to wipe his OS and start over. What exactly is he talking about? Should I do that?

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

Booting to CD might happen automatically, just press any key at the proper time. However, in your BIOS the Hard Drive might be set to boot before the option to boot the CD is offered. Therefore, the Hard Drive will boot and not let the CD option show up.

The fix is to enter the BIOS (Hit Del key as the machine is booting, or maybe F2), and move the CD Drive up the list so that it is set to boot ahead of the Hard Drive. Then you will be given the option to boot from the CD. You will not need a Windows CD for this I think.

Also note that you will be required to perform any backups YOURSELF before starting the recovery. Burn to CD or move to memory stick, etc. so that you can put the files back when you are done.

In order to avoid loading all of the Dell crap, you WILL need a Windows CD, and the Codes to install (usually on the side of the case). However I had a hard time getting the install program to recognize the drive due to Dell's funky partitioning. You would have to use a partition utility to delete all of the partitions and start from scratch. Not a bad idea, but more work. I use Partition Magic, but not sure where you would find that. I've also used Linux boot disks, but there may be other utilities out there. Maybe do a search.

If it's not the caps, then hopefully a re-install will fix it. I've had the same symptoms from a bad Power Supply as well, but not as often.

JVD_X · Jun 5, 2008

1st - get a new computer.
2nd - the problem is probably heat related. Heat related issues fall into two categories:

a) The fan has been pulling dust into the machine for the last few years. Open it up and use a can of air to get all the gunk off everything. While you have the computer open try (b)

b) Constant heating and cooling of the motherboard can cause memory chip, the cpu, and expansion cards to come loose. This is classic in older machines because newer machines are better equipped with connectors that resist loosening. Give you memory cards, cpu, and expansion cards a little nudge to try and reseat them.

b) It is possible that the fan has given up the ghost.

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

atarlecky said:
1st - get a new computer.
2nd - the problem is probably heat related. Heat related issues fall into two categories:

a) The fan has been pulling dust into the machine for the last few years. Open it up and use a can of air to get all the gunk off everything. While you have the computer open try (b)

b) Constant heating and cooling of the motherboard can cause memory chip, the cpu, and expansion cards to come loose. This is classic in older machines because newer machines are better equipped with connectors that resist loosening. Give you memory cards, cpu, and expansion cards a little nudge to try and reseat them.

b) It is possible that the fan has given up the ghost.

1. I agree. The thing is that I was hoping to keep this one for the kids room. just for word, clipart, school stuff (no internet!

)

2. I had ot open when I put in new memory cards recently and cleaned out everything really well as well as pressing the "guts" back in. I also checked the fan and that seems to be working OK.

It just seems strange that this never happened before I put in the bigger RAM a few weeks ago. But then again it was fine for 2 weeks after that...grrrrrr

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
OK, so I will not use the F11, correct? Just use the disks to avoid the garbage.

Can you explain what Fdisk is for future reference that these guys are talking about?

Also, EdWort has told me a few times that when he gets a new computer, e builds a partition and saves everything to that so when this happens it is no big deal to wipe his OS and start over. What exactly is he talking about? Should I do that?

If'n it were me, I'd use the partition utility of my choice to delete the partitions on the drive, and then boot a Windows install disk and start over completely. It takes a bit more time, but really much faster than uninstalling a bunch of junk later.

FDISK is a DOS/Windows/Linux utility that manages the paritions on your drive. Think of a partition as a "slice" of your hard drive. You are essentially creating smaller virtual discs out of one bigger physical disk. THis can very useful for keeping your files organized, or for having the option to boot more than one OS if you want. Ed probably does this to make a backup partition on his drives. This is a great idea, and if you want to take the time, I recommend it.

First, you should be able to find some very good instructions online for partitioning using FDISK or whatever. If you have the drive space that is. You will need at least 1 PRIMARY partition, and make it active. Then you can create SECONDARY partition with LOGICAL partitions in that.

You can then use an imaging software to create an image of your OS partition when you are done installing everything. Then, you can use that image file to recover the machine if you have problems later. And it only takes a few minutes at that point.

I also like to use a logical drive to store my data files, so that I can more confidently play with the OS partition without fear of losing data. This is what your drive might look like:

C:\ (PRIMARY ACTIVE) = 40+ GB used to boot the OS and store program files
D:\ (LOGICAL) = 80 GB data drive. Used to hold music, pictures, etc.
E:\ (LOGICAL) = 10 GB. Keeps one or more images of your Primary partition for restoration purposes.

The sizes of these examples can vary depending on many factors, including the size of your disk, and the space you need for your apps and files.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
1. I agree. The thing is that I was hoping to keep this one for the kids room. just for word, clipart, school stuff (no internet!)

2. I had ot open when I put in new memory cards recently and cleaned out everything really well as well as pressing the "guts" back in. I also checked the fan and that seems to be working OK.

It just seems strange that this never happened before I put in the bigger RAM a few weeks ago. But then again it was fine for 2 weeks after that...grrrrrr

Well, it *Could* be mismatched memory, or even a bad stick. Maybe try removing one of the sticks and see if it works better. Sometimes bad memory doesn't show itself right away. You can even run a memory test software utility that will perform read write tests on the memory and report any failures.

Or, it could be dirty power. A PSU that is not putting out proper current could show up if the memory is more sensitive to that.

Honestly, the root cause may be hard to find without trying several things out. That would make a great kids machine and very worth having, so don't give up on it. This might end up being a little frustrating, but going through these steps will give you tons of experience and confidence.

cubbies · Jun 5, 2008

Installing you OS anew is never a bad thing IMO. However, if you are freezing at the safe mode menu, I would have a hard time believing it is Windows. There are very, very few components of Windows loaded at that time. As suggested, I would remove the memory chip before I did anything else. It is VERY possible that is the culprit IMO. Heat is another possibility, and the power could possibly be the issue, although I think that is slim.

It will take you two seconds to remove the memory stick and see what happnens vs numerous hours to reinstall the OS. I would certainly start there.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

I agre with Cubbies about windows running better on a fresh install, even though I have run mine for at least 4 years without doing that. The last time was due to an upgrade in hardware. Being careful online and using good protection software can keep the nasties off the machine.

I agree also that having freezes before the OS boots is indicative of hardware issue not software, although even during the early boot phase, a critical windows file could be causing the issue.

I use canned air to clear any dust (ok, I actually use my shop compressor, but canned air is good too), and I like to remove each card/stick and clean the contact edges with a pencil eraser to remove any dirt or oxidation. Be careful not to damage the part, and wipe clean with clean dry cloth. An earth ground is also a good idea if you can.

If your video card has a fan on it, make sure that is working properly too. They are under the video card and hard to see. Your computer will not have this if the video is on board the motherboard. Also check the northbridge chipset. It might have a fan on it. Oh it's a Dell, nevermind. Retail MOBOs often have them, and they are usually pretty cheap (unrealiable).

See? troubleshooting PCs is so much fun!

RodfatherX · Jun 5, 2008

Homercidal said:
Well, it *Could* be mismatched memory, or even a bad stick. Maybe try removing one of the sticks and see if it works better. Sometimes bad memory doesn't show itself right away. You can even run a memory test software utility that will perform read write tests on the memory and report any failures.

Or, it could be dirty power. A PSU that is not putting out proper current could show up if the memory is more sensitive to that.

Also, try doing a system restore through windows. Start, Accessories, System Tools, System Restore. Take it back to a date a week or 2 b4 the prob began.

Forgot to add
Yes, running a bootable memtest would be a good idea for checking each stick of mem separately ........... get the http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ that someone posted and run the memtest 86+, also that bootcd offers a CPU stress test.....might as well run that to see if the prob is the CPU.

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

First thing I did was the RAM diagnosis. Took out each one and left it as it was before I ever bought the the new stuff. No difference. It was actually worse when I put the original one in only without the new.

OK, to make it more weird.....in the morning after it has been resting all night, it lets me get about an hour out of it before it freezes up. Then as the day goes on and it has been used a bunch I end up getting about 5 minutes between freezes. So I am thinking heat. But then I run it in safe mode and it will never freeze. So it can't be heat. It froze while in the BIOS only once and that may be because I tried to reboot too dam fast (didn't toally shut down). It only did that once. Hasn't happened since that time and I think that is not the problem.

Homer --

I really like the idea of having partitions on my drive for different applications and to have a backup for all of my "stuff". Problem is that what you said is over my head. What is "LOGICAL" partition and when do I use those as opposed to the other kind. When I need to reboot and wipe clean, does the reinstall not touch the things on some of the partitions?
Can I get a partition utility as freeware or do I need to head to the software store?

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

RodfatherX said:
Also, try doing a system restore through windows. Start, Accessories, System Tools, System Restore. Take it back to a date a week or 2 b4 the prob began.

System Restore as well as GoBack both say I can't revert back to before the freezing happened. When I try it reboots then a message says "unable to resore your computer to this time, no changes were made". I have used both these programs in the past and they worked great. I think the freezing deletes the last known good points. They come up as dates I can choose, but then the message comes up for "did not change settings".

cubbies · Jun 5, 2008

If you restore with a WinXP CD, it will get to a point during setup where you can create partitions. Also, you can do it in Windows after the installation, but you need to make sure that you dont make your primary partition the size of the entire disk, which it tries to do by default.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

You should be able to get a partition utility online. I use Partition Magic, and am not up on the free downloadable ones. I have used Linux boot disks before. Their version of FDISK is very similar to Microsofts (except much more powerful...)

Picture you have a knife and you could cut a Hard Drive into pieces and use each piece individually. These are partitions. However, there are rules to partitioning (depending on the file system, but I'll only talk about the Windows ones).

Let's say you have a bare, unpartitioned drive fresh out of the box. You HAVE to partition it because you have to give it a file system. So you give it a single partition, lets say the NTFS system since we are talking about Windows XP. This partition also has to have the "ACTIVE" flag set or it can't be used to boot Windows. This would be the PRIMARY ACTIVE partition. This would be the "C:" drive.

If you want to cut the drive into two or three pieces then you have to partition it further. You can create a SECONDARY partition, which would contain one or more LOGICAL partitions. The first logical partition would become a "D:" drive, the second would be the "E:" drive and so on. Normally these would appear in Windows Explorer as, C:, D:, and E:, but they might not depending on if they are hidden or not (normally they would not), and depending on if you change the drive letter designation in Windows (You can do that if you like, but most do not).

I prefer working with Partition Magic when doing more complicated manuevers such as resizing, moving, etc. These are not possible with themore basic utilities, and can save tons of hassle. Say I want to create a new partition to hold a back up image. With Partition Magic I start the software and there is a graphical representation of my partitions. I can then tell PM to create a new partition from a section of the freespace of an existing partition, and hit go. A few minutes later I have a new partition that I can stick an image on for safety. Without a program like Partition Magic I'd have to back up the data in the existing partition, delete it, create a new, smaller partition, and then the new image partition.

The basic Partitioning utilities woudl be fine for what you are doing. You can even do that stuff from the Windows install program, or from the FDISK program that comes on the Install CD.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

What size is your disk? We might be able to suggest appropriate partition sizes out of that knowledge.

Sir Humpsalot · Jun 5, 2008

This thread has been serious for too long.

Since your computer is freezing, why not build a huge box out of styrofoam, put the computer inside, and use it to lager your beers? That's what I'd do if my computer was freezing...

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

Sir Humpsalot said:
This thread has been serious for too long.

Since your computer is freezing, why not build a huge box out of styrofoam, put the computer inside, and use it to lager your beers? That's what I'd do if my computer was freezing...

LOL! My friend has plans to take an old arcade machine and install a MAME computer so he would have access to play all of the classic arcade games right from a spare computer. The best part is that the housing would also hold a kegerator system and tap for easy pouring access! :rockin:

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

Homercidal said:
What size is your disk? We might be able to suggest appropriate partition sizes out of that knowledge.

HD is 120gb

I understand what a partition does, but how do I create one when installing Windows fresh? Doesn't it just come up as "C" for all my internal memory? I am guessing that is what the partition program does.

So if I have a partition and my "stuff" on say "K", when I go to reinstall a fresh wiped windows, why won't it delete all of the stuff on this drive as well? Isn't it still running on the windows program in order to work? for instance, now I have A, B, C, D drives. When I put in a memory card, it shows as F drive. If I put in a G, H or I, I could save to those drives and keep nothing saved to the "C" drive. Is that right?

Also, what does it mean to "image" something to a different drive like you were referring to earlier?

Looking at fdisk articles on MS website, it looks like that is a partition builder built in.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q255867/

So I can just use that to build partitions, right? And I can decide how much memory to put into each partition. Suggestions on what to put on each partition and how many to make for basic stuff? How about just one with different folders like I do in "C" now but in a different place?

I am trying now the solution presented that putting my computer in the microwave may keep it from freezing, but I have to thaw it at room temp first or it will be rubbery. I'm not all serious either!

RodfatherX · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
First thing I did was the RAM diagnosis. Took out each one and left it as it was before I ever bought the the new stuff. No difference. It was actually worse when I put the original one in only without the new.

OK, to make it more weird.....in the morning after it has been resting all night, it lets me get about an hour out of it before it freezes up. Then as the day goes on and it has been used a bunch I end up getting about 5 minutes between freezes. So I am thinking heat. But then I run it in safe mode and it will never freeze. So it can't be heat. It froze while in the BIOS only once and that may be because I tried to reboot too dam fast (didn't toally shut down). It only did that once. Hasn't happened since that time and I think

So.....are you saying you ran a bootable ram test? or just tried 1 stick at a time and leaving it running? I have another suggestion also.......try downloading a copy of a linux live cd. Unplug the harddrives from the pc and boot from the live cd. Mess around with it for a while and see if it freezes.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

First, the A and B are reserved for Floppy drives. You can ignore them for these purposes.

Next, we are concerned only with the Hard Drive partitions. The memory sticks should start popping up as letters after the last HDD (Hard Disk Drive) letter. If not, you can change them in windows later.

The fact that you have a D: drive might indicate that you have a hard drive partitioned into 2 chunks, or that you have 2 drives. You can see this in

Control panel -> Administrative Tools -> Computer Management -> Disk Management. This will show you what you have for drives and partitions (as far as windows can see anyway...)

On the left it lists the drives (Disks) you have and then to the right of that it shows what partitions there are for each disk, and their drive letter. It shows CD drives and removeable media liek memory sticks. This is where you can change the letters of the drives (not recommended for the primary partition).

During the installation program you will be prompted as to where you want to install windows. At this screen you can delete, and create your partitions, and when you have them created, you can choose which one you want to install windows to. It's very simple to understand. Just read the instructions and press "d" for delete, and "c" on the freespace to create a partition in the unpartitioned space. You will enter the size of the partitions in Megabytes. If you screw it up, no big deal, just reboot and start over.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

RodfatherX said:
So.....are you saying you ran a bootable ram test? or just tried 1 stick at a time and leaving it running? I have another suggestion also.......try downloading a copy of a linux live cd. Unplug the harddrives from the pc and boot from the live cd. Mess around with it for a while and see if it freezes.

+1 on that. I've used Knoppix (search for it). You might also try running a benchmark software for the CPU and Video, just to create a little heat. 3DMarks used to be my favorite. but there are likely others now.

Homercidal · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
Also, what does it mean to "image" something to a different drive like you were referring to earlier?

Looking at fdisk articles on MS website, it looks like that is a partition builder built in.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q255867/

An image is a snapshot of the data on your drive. They are typically compressed so they are smaller than the actual partitions they came from. When in need, you can make an exact copy of the original drive by uncompressing them onto a new partition. So you could save an image of drive C: on another partition, and then use that to reinstall your C: partition later if you have problems. Just delete the C: Partition, create a new one, then boot the recovery software and copy the image back to the new C: drive.

They are often created after your OS is installed and updated, and all of your basic Apps installed. And then when you make any major installations.

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

So I can create an image whenever I like, or only the computer creates it's own? And then I save that to a different drive (partition) and can run it in full form if needed later? If so....cool....how do I create an "image" to store for later use?

My memory tests have been to put one stick in at a time and see if it freezes. I will try the tests you guys are referring to.

RodfatherX · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
Yes that is not a good way to test it. Even the memtest that you run as a program in windows is not good. You have to get a bootable memtest (memtest86) and run it over night on each stick. I think most copies of linux you would download will have a bootable memtest86 on the disk. I know ubuntu does for sure.

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

You guys rock......but I still need someone to explain what Linux is......

JVD_X · Jun 5, 2008

Kayos said:
It just seems strange that this never happened before I put in the bigger RAM a few weeks ago. But then again it was fine for 2 weeks after that...grrrrrr

OK - next up... did you completely replace all the memory or just add sticks? If you added two sticks (or one even with "modern" pc's) and they are not off the same assembly line, they often will create the instability you describe.

You really need to have all the same type and manufacturer memory.

Kayos · Jun 5, 2008

atarlecky said:
OK - next up... did you completely replace all the memory or just add sticks? If you added two sticks (or one even with "modern" pc's) and they are not off the same assembly line, they often will create the instability you describe.

You really need to have all the same type and manufacturer memory.

Tried to add one. Worked fine. When this happened, I took the old one out and jut went with the new. Still froze. Took out the new and just used the old, like I never even bough the new. Froze even faster.

From the research I have been doing tonight, it look slike I can save all my stuff to a partitioned drive and then reinstall the OS. Is that true? Will I only lose the stuff in the drive I am putting the os in?

EvilTOJ · Jun 6, 2008

First, never mind what fdisk is. It's an old partitioning software and a lot of the oldskool geeks used to use it. You also need to know what you're doing because it's very easy to erase everything off a drive by accident. And you, my friend, don't know what you're doing

Homercidal gave a good explanation on Fdisk here; http://homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=703153&postcount=35

and here; http://homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=703297&postcount=43

You already have the partitions set up. I'm going to assume you have a regular windows XP, and not an OEM disk (that means a specialized operating system disk that came with your computer) Here's a good page on how to do a clean installation of windows XP.

http://www.theeldergeek.com/clean_installation_of_windows_xp.htm

Ignore the crap in the blue box on that page, you don't need to know it. Now, when the installation gets to the point where it asks you which partition you want to use, select it, and you MUST tell the installation to format it, not leave the file system intact! Otherwise it will just install another copy of XP and that won't fix your problem. It will go through the motions but not fix it. The rest of the reinstall will go along with that page.

You also need to do like many people have suggested and run memtest86. It boots off a CD or floppy and runs all by itself testing memory sticks.

Homercidal · Jun 6, 2008

For more info on Linux, do a google search and look at some screen shots. You can simply assume that it's the same thing as Windows (it generally performs the same functions, which is essentially connects the hardware to your software applications).

There are many "flavors" of Linux, because it's free and customizable, and lots of serious geeks and nerds have decided to create their own favorite versions over the years. It's going to have a much larger learning curve, especially if you know how to use Windows, and dont' know much about how hardware and OS works together.

RodfatherX · Jun 6, 2008

Homercidal said:
For more info on Linux, do a google search and look at some screen shots. You can simply assume that it's the same thing as Windows (it generally performs the same functions, which is essentially connects the hardware to your software applications).

There are many "flavors" of Linux, because it's free and customizable, and lots of serious geeks and nerds have decided to create their own favorite versions over the years. It's going to have a much larger learning curve, especially if you know how to use Windows, and don't' know much about how hardware and OS works together.

lol don't scare the poor chap.........you will only use it to mess around with eitherway, and it will be pretty easy to pop in the disk. With your HD disconnected it should boot from the CD. Then it will take you to an EASY to understand menu. Where you will run the memtest over night (on each separate stick). My god alyssa milano is hot ......sry watching charmed. Not that I like the show. I have it muted and am just glancing up every sec or so when she comes on screen.

Then, you will reboot and click the run or try linux option with out making an changes to your PC. From there it will take you into a GUI(graphical User Interface) that depending on the version, will look a lot like XP/MAC OS 10 mix. It'll have a start button probably....that will pop a menu up just like xp that will list all your programs. Just play around with it for a while leave it up overnight again, to see if it freezes.

I would go with Ubuntu just because I know it has the memtest in the start up menu, and I know it is semi close to XP. You will have to burn the ISO you download to a disc. Incase you do not have a program that will burn an ISO......here one is

D/L both links........install the imageburn program. Click on the ubuntu ISO ...
click burn.

Turn off the PC.... unhook the Harddrive/remove one stick of RAM...turn on PC. It will take you to a menu. Run the Memtest overnight. If error free...or even if it isn't check the other to make sure. Then if they both check out.....or even if they do. Run the linux live cd and play around with it for a while and see if it freezes.

Good Luck

I need computer help! Freezing Computer

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