Extract addition in last 15min of boil?

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uuurang

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The guys on basicbrewing podcast suggest adding LME in the last 15 min of boil to keep darkening of wort to a minimum. I guess one just boils water and hops for what ever called for time period and then add your LME and DME at the last 15mins of boil to sanitize.

ok, that just seems loopy. Does anybody do this? Any thoughts?
 
I've been doing it that way for years. The reason is to keep the color as light as possible without carmelizing it more.

IMO using LME starts out too dark for EVERY style I know of. I do not recommend it...EVER.

You can add it, stir to dissolve, and let sit for 15 mins and it's the same as boiling it.

Remember, LME is condenced wort...why boil it again?
 
Thanks for response. Yes, i've noticed that all my brews, which have been extract, end up with very similar color. The color never gets very light. A weizen beer with supposedly 60% wheat malt came out the lightest of all.
I take it from your post, homebrewer_99, you all-grain. Does the color vary more?

I suppose DME can be treated the same since it too is boiled and spray condensed to form powder???

So, what is the point of boiling for 60 min with extract? Is it purely to create proper hop bittering along with respective taste and aroma from hops? Is the boiling more important with all grain?
 
Nope, I'm almost 100% DME...:D

Yes, the 60 min boil is for the extraction of the bittering hops alpha acids.

I've done lots of experimenting with my boils. I still boil 60 min, but I've also boiled 30 mins and doubled up on the hops which adds up to the same bittering percentage. It also reduces my time (30 mins) and use of gas (for 30 mins). Since I buy bulk DME and hops adding an extra oz of hops is cheaper than wasting a half hour.

I'll use 1/4 lb of grain occasionally, but not often. Are these light enough for you????:D

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I've been doing this for a while too, I steep grains and do a partial boil. It's helps alot with the color and also with the hop utilization. Seems to be the best way to go with extracts.
 
When I'm making something that calls for a lighter color I will often wait to add some if not all of my DME until the end. The only thing you have to be aware of is to adjust your hop additions since the utilization will be higher due to the lower gravity of the boil. I use ProMash to calculate the IBUs based on however much extract and grains I plan to boil for 60 minutes.
 
homebrewer_99, beautiful pics! Hubba hubba! Thanks for sharing!

The Wernesgruner is a pilsner, right? I love the large bubbles on the head, reminds me of the head on Orval with its champagne like qualities(just a random observation!) and that color is classic pilsner.

Also, can you enlighten me as to what the numbers in your signature represent? Example: Bottled/Kegged: 7001-Mex Lager (K)..7007-Irish Red (K)..7006-Steam (K)..7005-HW..7003-HW..7002-Czech Bud (K)..6032-Light Ale..6031-Apple Mel..6030-Amer Blond..6028-Bitter Amer AmBASSador..6027-Helles..6026-Amer Ale..
TIA!
 
This is a very interesting idea. I gotta start playing around with it. I'm chomping at the bit to do 1st all-grain. Unfortunetly my taxes are taking precedent over beer brewing. IMO a darn shame. UUgghh, gotta stop procrastinating. Sorry for rant.
 
uuurang said:
homebrewer_99, beautiful pics! Hubba hubba! Thanks for sharing!

The Wernesgruner is a pilsner, right? I love the large bubbles on the head, reminds me of the head on Orval with its champagne like qualities(just a random observation!) and that color is classic pilsner.

Also, can you enlighten me as to what the numbers in your signature represent? Example: Bottled/Kegged: 7001-Mex Lager (K)..7007-Irish Red (K)..7006-Steam (K)..7005-HW..7003-HW..7002-Czech Bud (K)..6032-Light Ale..6031-Apple Mel..6030-Amer Blond..6028-Bitter Amer AmBASSador..6027-Helles..6026-Amer Ale..
TIA!
Ja ja, Wernersgruner in Germany is a Pils. What's in the glass is my Light Ale Experiment.

Ah, my numbering system. I've been asked about that many times. It's really simple (for me). I've been working for the Army for over 30 years so I am used to using the Julian Calendar. This is just a modified version. The first number is the year and the others are the batch made during that year. Now I know I will never brew 999 batches in a year so I could really shorten it to 3 characters, but I'm used to seeing 4 so I use 4. The (K) is something new since I've just started kegging, so...(K) means kegged.

As far as my sig goes...the list is of beers I still have on-hand. :D

The list is going to get longer soon since SWMBO is dieting...so am I (for about 2 months until my next Drs appt). That won't stop me from brewing though. As a matter of fact I think it'll be beneficial as I may be able to brew 4-6 more batches in the next 2 months...they'll have time to age for pre-summer parties, lawnmower sessions, etc. :D
 
uuurang said:
The guys on basicbrewing podcast suggest adding LME in the last 15 min of boil to keep darkening of wort to a minimum. I guess one just boils water and hops for what ever called for time period and then add your LME and DME at the last 15mins of boil to sanitize.

ok, that just seems loopy. Does anybody do this? Any thoughts?

You should have some of your DME or LME in the boil the whole time to get proper hop utilization. So if you're brewing something light, don't put all of it in, but to extract bitterness effectively takes some extract.

or so I've heard.
 
I have used 1 lb as well as 1/2 lb in the 45 min boil. Remove from heat. Add in 1 lb of DME at a time and dissolve. Once dissolved add another lb and repeat. Once all the DME is added let sit for 15 mins.

As an alternate you can boil for 1/2 hour, but you have to double up on your bittering hops.

Then continue your normal process of pouring into primary/cooling, whichever technique you use.
 
So is the extract late method used purely for color issues or is there any flavor advantages involved? Also like one member stated, ive also heard that you should add some of your extract at the start of your boil for proper hop bitterness. Any comments on if that is needed?
 
The color is one issue, probably the main one. But your hops utilization is higher with a lower gravity wort- so you have to take that into consideration when making a favorite. I did that on my Dead Guy clone- one the "regular" way, one with the DME added with 15 minutes left in the boil The late extract addition seemed twice as bitter to me, but mellowed with a bit of aging and become my husband's favorite beer.

I don't know if you "should" add some extract at the beginning, but I did. I think about 1/2, if I remember correctly.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
Yes, the 60 min boil is for the extraction of the bittering hops alpha acids.

I've done lots of experimenting with my boils. I still boil 60 min, but I've also boiled 30 mins and doubled up on the hops which adds up to the same bittering percentage. It also reduces my time (30 mins) and use of gas (for 30 mins). Since I buy bulk DME and hops adding an extra oz of hops is cheaper than wasting a half hour.

Wow, I'm gonna have to try this out! I'm sure it's not the first time you (or anyone) has mentioned this, but it's the first time I've seen it. Just goes to show you learn something new every day! Thanks for the tip, Bill!
 
Atticmonkey said:
So is the extract late method used purely for color issues or is there any flavor advantages involved? Also like one member stated, ive also heard that you should add some of your extract at the start of your boil for proper hop bitterness. Any comments on if that is needed?
Right. See above...I only add 1/2 to 1 lb of Extra Light DME in the boil and the rest at flameout and let that pasteurize for 15 mins. All LME and DME has already been cooked up once. Why cook it again?:D

You're welcome Pat. How are things at Stewart? Not deploying this year are you? How's the wife and baby?
 
This thread has convinced me to try a DME-only batch this weekend, adding the majority late in the boil. Is there a standard mass conversion going from LME to DME? I assume that the LME is diluted with water to some extent.
 
I did it on my hefeweizen. Tasted it after 1 week of bottling, still a little green but coming along nicely. Color is light.
 
Last two beers were done with late addition of LME. Don't know what they taste like yet. I used the same hop schedule indicated in the recipe. Next time should I use less hops? I used 1/3 of the extract plus the steeped grain water for the full 60 minutes. Is it as simple as only adding 1/3 of the hops?
 
sfov said:
could you use this technique to make a starter?

I'm not sure what you're asking- when you make a starter you don't have to boil for an hour or anything like that. Just add the extract to the boiling water and boil for a few minutes than cool. The purpose of the starter is to grow yeast, not make beer.
 
Today I asked my resident expert at my LHBS about adding LME late in the boil to keep caramelization to a minimum.

...he said that it's fine, but that if you don't do a full 60 minute boil with DME or LME you'll run the risk of a cloudy beer because the proteins that cause haze don't really have a chance to break down during the boil process.

...So, it's fine for a Hefe, but if you're really looking for a nice clear beer then this method may not be the best way to go.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?
 
So you could potentially, steep the specialty grains, boil the hops then flame out and add the *ME, stir until dissolved? Or at least add just a tiny bit of malt with the hops.

Also, what is the formula for the amount of hops to be used compared to what is called for when you do this?
 
mikes65 said:
Today I asked my resident expert at my LHBS about adding LME late in the boil to keep caramelization to a minimum.

...he said that it's fine, but that if you don't do a full 60 minute boil with DME or LME you'll run the risk of a cloudy beer because the proteins that cause haze don't really have a chance to break down during the boil process.

...So, it's fine for a Hefe, but if you're really looking for a nice clear beer then this method may not be the best way to go.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

My understanding is that ME is basically wort that has already been processed and reduced down to a powder or syrup. Therefore, any processes that require boiling have already been done for the ME. The purpose of boiling the ME at all is to help dissolve the ME into your wort and destroy any beasties that may have found their way into the ME between the manufacturer and your brewpot.
 
z987k said:
So you could potentially, steep the specialty grains, boil the hops then flame out and add the *ME, stir until dissolved? Or at least add just a tiny bit of malt with the hops.

Also, what is the formula for the amount of hops to be used compared to what is called for when you do this?

This is the way I did it. Made a ESB last weekend and it's rockin' in the fermeter right now. I didn't make too much more change to the recipe but then the ESB didn't have that much hops (really) compared to my IIPA. :) I did notice that the wlp002 yeast took a break for about a day and then started back up again with much more vigor. So far this is the longes fermenting batch I've had. 5 days.
 
mikes65 said:
Today I asked my resident expert at my LHBS about adding LME late in the boil to keep caramelization to a minimum.

...he said that it's fine, but that if you don't do a full 60 minute boil with DME or LME you'll run the risk of a cloudy beer because the proteins that cause haze don't really have a chance to break down during the boil process.

...So, it's fine for a Hefe, but if you're really looking for a nice clear beer then this method may not be the best way to go.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?
I'm certain that process has already happened before the extract was reduced.

However, if your beer is too cloudy you can always use gelatin a couple of days prior to bottling.

I know the instructions for gelatin say to use it at bottling, but that stuff looks UGLY!! I use it in the carboy then rack to a bottling bucket a few days later. It works well. :D
 
homebrewer_99 said:
I'm certain tha process has already happened before the extract was reduced.

However, if your beer is too cloudy you can always use gelatin a couple of days prior to bottling.

I know the instructions for gelatin say to use it at bottling, but that stuff looks UGLY!! I use it in the carboy then rack to a bottling bucket a few days later. It works well. :D
Do you find that gelatin works better than other clarifying agents, like irish moss or whirlfloc? I've only tried whirlfloc, and it seems to work ok, but I'd try gelatin if you vouch for it.

EDIT: I guess I've always liked the tablets because you add them at the boil, when there is no risk of bugs.
 
Unclesamskid said:
My understanding is that ME is basically wort that has already been processed and reduced down to a powder or syrup. Therefore, any processes that require boiling have already been done for the ME.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

It's funny... I find that this is an awful lot like raising kids in the aspect that everybody's got an opinion on how to do it, and the ideas are often VERY different. People like the guy that runs my LHBS are very, VERY knowledgeable, but when I take ideas that he says and bounce them off others I often recieve very different results.

Bottom line I guess is that it's all about experimentation, and finding out what works for you.
 
You guys are saying that the hot break doesn't need to occur - Right?

Doesn't this fly in the face of most of the advice given by the experts in the hobby? Chucks TNCJOBH says you need to boil to precipitate and coagulate the undesirable proteins. - Or is this now bunk?

Your logic is that it has already been done with DME & LME. I'm not 100% convinced of that. I can understand no boil kits as having already done that and possibly hopped extracts.

Does anyone know if the mfg of LME & DME changed in the last decade? I know the ME is boiled under a vacuum at temps 105-160'F

This is interesting.... might be worth contacting Briess or Muntons to see what that have to say about this.
 
I emailed them both. Briess & Muntons - Asking specifically about the need for the hot break and the motivation to minimize caramelization of the sugars.

Got one reply back already. Out of office message....

I should have an answer on Monday.

:mug:
 
Schlenkerla said:
I emailed them both. Briess & Muntons - Asking specifically about the need for the hot break and the motivation to minimize caramelization of the sugars.

Got one reply back already. Out of office message....

I should have an answer on Monday.

:mug:
Any word from Briess or Muntons? Don't mean to be a pest, but I'm kind of interested to hear what they have to say
 
I've done my last two with late extract additions, the first with putting a bit in with the bittering hops and the second I held out all the extract until about 10mins. We'll see what color they come to.. These were both LME btw.
 
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