So I tried the Whole Keep your Beer in the Primary Longer this Time Around...

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RLinNH

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...and it has been in the Primary now for 16 days and counting. I'll start taking Hydro readings this Saturday. I have never had my Beer in the primary for more then 8 days. But Lo and Behold, I was in the Basement drowning some bottles this evening preparing for my bottling sessions this Weekend, and I actually saw Air Lock Activity!!! We're talking 16 days here folks. I am astounded at this fact' I am also anxious to see what the Hydro readings will be. What's the longest you have kept a Beer in the Primary?
 
RLinNH said:
...and it has been in the Primary now for 16 days and counting. I'll start taking Hydro readings this Saturday. I have never had my Beer in the primary for more then 8 days. But Lo and Behold, I was in the Basement drowning some bottles preparing for my bottling sessions this Weekend, and I actually saw Air Lock Activity!!! We're talking 16 days here folks. I am astounded at this fact' I am also anxious to see what the Hydro readings will be. What's the longest you have kept a Beer in the Primary?

I had a hefe sit in a bucket for like 5 weeks once, I had moved and after I had no motivation to do anything so it sat and sat and sat. It is still drinkable now, but it is not nearly as good as it could have been.
 
I primary all my beers for at least 2 weeks to start. I pitch according to Mr. Malty's calc, but ferment around 65 (with one exception). Maybe that's why they take so long.
 
PseudoChef said:
I primary all my beers for at least 2 weeks to start. I pitch according to Mr. Malty's calc, but ferment around 65 (with one exception). Maybe that's why they take so long.
This Beer has been in my basement at 65ish for a little over 2 weeks now. I'm thinking Hydro readings start tomorrow night. This Batch should be in the secondary on Friday night.
 
I've had mine in for up to 5 weeks. In my opinion it aids in the clearing of the beer before I transfer it over to the Secondary. It gives those yeast cells time to get the job done and clean themselves up... but again that's just me :)
 
The longest I've gone is around a 3 weeks (not counting apfelwein).

The beer turns out fine. I don't secondary anymore unless the recipe calls for it (like dry-hopping, long clearing/conditioning, etc).
 
Kept my last beer (a fairly big stout) in primary for a month. Tastes great but needs to age just a bit more.
 
Kubed said:
5 weeks?! ... that's some hardcore self control.
Well it takes a lot less self control to keep it in the primary than to keep it in bottles :)
 
I was one of those guys that would primary for 7 days, no matter what. now I primary for two-three weeks, no matter what. I also secondary for 2- 3 weeks, no matter what. Then I let it age in the keg for a month maybe two, no matter what. my beer tastes better than it did when I started......
 
My beers stay in primary for between 10 days to 4 weeks then hit the bottles / kegs. The exception is my porter which was primaried for 4 weeks then secondaries for another four or so for some bulk conditioning. I also playing to use about a 2 week secondary on a couple beers that I need to dry hop (my IPA and gumball head clone).
 
My last ESB i brewed has been in the primary for 3 weeks and 2 days as of today... I'm getting into kegging as we speak, but will take me about 2 weeks to get the kegerator built. I plan for this to be my first beer on tap - thus it will see about 5 weeks in primary and then into the keg. I'll let you know how it turns out - should be great!

Going primary for about 3-4 weeks with no secondary (unless needed for something like oaking, etc.) is great for me b/c I really love brewing and drinking, but really dislike transferring, bottling, etc. when it isn't necessary...
 
You guys need to get them beers off that trub! Secondaries don't hurt a thing and help keep that trub from adding unwanted flavors to the beer. Leave it in secondary for weeks and weeks, but get. off. that. trub. Honestly, a few weeks on the trub probably won't hurt the beer, but if you are going for a while, why risk it? Just rack it.

And you guys letting the hefe's sit so long: Why the hefe's? Those are best young :)
 
Tell that to Jamil Z. He's not having any trouble with 3-4 week primaries. He mentioned more than once that extending primary and skipping secondary was one of the biggest improvements he's made in his process. I don't like putting too many people on a pedestal but he wins so many damn awards it's hard to ignore.
 
The only times I've ever used a secondary were when I've used fruit in the primary-Cherry Stout, Blueberry Wheat, Pumpkin Ale, etc. After 7 days or so the fruit will look kind of funky.

With the Cherry Stout, the cherries leached out to an off white color and looked especially nasty in the dark stout.
 
3-4 weeks, I can see that, but some people are talking about months here.

I imagine the beer will still be fine, still don't think its worth the risk though. What advantage is there to leaving it in the primary so long?
 
I no longer use secondaries and do primary for about 4 weeks. Leaving beer on yeast is not a big deal ... yeast is our friend and only makes beer better. The key is to CLEAN UP your beer before primary. If you are pitching into a carboy of wort with 2 inches of kettle crap on the bottom, you arent doing yourself any favors.

My brew procedure is this: run everything out of the kettle at 80-90 degrees into a carboy, put a sanitized piece of foil over it and sit it on the kitchen counter; clean up all your brew mess; 2 hours later, rack the wort (now 75 or so) off all the crap at the bottom of the carboy into a botting bucket; clean and sanitize the carboy; pitch the yeast starter (you DID make a starter, didn't you?) into the carboy; SPLASH the wort out of the bottling bucket into the carboy, shaking while it goes; airlock it and put it in a dark place for a month and forget its there.

I'll grant you ... patience is hard to learn, but it helps if you already have your brew pipeline moving.

1-2-3 is old technology.
 
teu1003 said:
Leaving beer on yeast is not a big deal ... yeast is our friend and only makes beer better.
I'm not so sure about that.

My brew procedure is this: run everything out of the kettle at 80-90 degrees into a carboy, put a sanitized piece of foil over it and sit it on the kitchen counter; clean up all your brew mess; 2 hours later, rack the wort (now 75 or so) off all the crap at the bottom of the carboy into a botting bucket; clean and sanitize the carboy; pitch the yeast starter ... into the carboy; SPLASH the wort out of the bottling bucket into the carboy, ... put it in a dark place for a month and forget its there.
Ugh, that's way too complicated for me. I just chill/whirlpool in the brew pot and rack the beer off the trub and into the primary.

1-2-3 is old technology.
And that lessens its usefulness how?
 
Brett have you ever had any problems with leaving a brew for too long on the trub/yeast cake?

Personally i haven't, i've only ever seen the beer improve.
 
Jamil talks about this in the *I think* American wheat episode (I listened to 2 yesterday, and I'm pretty sure that's the one).

Talks about yeast ADDING more to the beer rather than taking away. That's why he leaves it on there so long.
 
Leaving the beer on the trub for too long might cause off flavors because of autolysis (the yeast eating its own dead body). It's not a problem if you just have a small yeast cake (secondary), but a big one could cause bad flavors if the beer sits on it for more than a month (especially light beers).
 
PseudoChef said:
Jamil talks about this in the *I think* American wheat episode (I listened to 2 yesterday, and I'm pretty sure that's the one).

Talks about yeast ADDING more to the beer rather than taking away. That's why he leaves it on there so long.

his post in that thread (page 2) that I previously linked:

jamilz said:
I use glass carboys for all batches except when I need to do a 10 gallon batch. Then I use a conical because it holds 10 gallons.

I do not do "secondary" either. Most of the folks describe my process correctly, but it has nothing to do with conicals. I let the beer sit on the yeast until everything fermentation/yeast related is complete. Then the beer gets kegged and carbonated. I don't use a racking cane. I just use a length of tubing and I don't have any trouble getting the beer off the yeast.
 
I haven't seen anyone suggest leaving anything in primary for months... I've seen 5 weeks mentioned in this thread. Everyone else is talking in ranges of 10 days to 4 weeks. Autolisys is claimed to happen moreso in unhealthy or overstressed yeast, those without appropriate nutrient stores or subjected to high alcohol levels. The benefit to leaving in primary longer on the main body of yeast is for conditioning purposes. That is, a beer left for one extra week in primary does the same conditioning as say a beer left in secondary for two weeks (more yeast to do it). I don't know how accurate my numbers are, I'm just guessing for sake of discussion. We've had the same discussion around forcing yeast out of suspension by crash chilling or using finings like gelatin. I'm not so sure that forcing the yeast out too early is a good thing but it's hard to know when the right time is.
 
delboy said:
Brett have you ever had any problems with leaving a brew for too long on the trub/yeast cake?

Nope. But then again I don't leave my beer on the cake for extraordinarily long amounts of time.
 
I use secondaries (which is misleading and partly why I disagree with Bobby_M's idea) simply because it makes me feel that my beer is "clearer" than it was when it was sitting in the primary. I tell you, especially for my pumpkin ale, it made me feel rather good to get it off that layer of crap.

Bobby_M said:
The benefit to leaving in primary longer on the main body of yeast is for conditioning purposes. That is, a beer left for one extra week in primary does the same conditioning as say a beer left in secondary for two weeks (more yeast to do it). I don't know how accurate my numbers are, I'm just guessing for sake of discussion.

I'd think that having additional yeast at the BOTTOM of the fermenter would do very little to actually help condition the beer. I'm assuming that yeast are only able to interact with molecules that they are in contact with. This indicates to me that the yeast in suspension are more valuable than the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter and that a three inch (example) layer of yeast in the bottom has the exact same affect (in terms of conditioning) on the beer as a .5 inch layer since the same volume of beer is in contact with yeast.

That said, I'd personally prefer to remove all non-needed stuff from my fermenters.

However, I think this debate is blown up more than it actually needs to be - quite simply the definition of "better" can only be defined by the person drinking the beer... Perhaps Jamil actually LIKES a sightly yeasty taste to his brews, and that's why a single-stage ferment is better for him. Perhaps it really does make a "better" beer, but good beer can be made with either technique I beleive.
 
In that case, most of the BJCP judges he ends up with likes whatever he's doing as well. I'd really like to do a mini batch of some generic ale in two 1-gallon jugs where one is racked into a secondary and placed right next to the undisturbed other primary. Wait another 3 weeks and compare the clarity. I'd bet they'd be darn close.
 
Bobby_M said:
In that case, most of the BJCP judges he ends up with likes whatever he's doing as well.

Those judges measure conformance to a specifc style of beer. It's vital for people interested in competing but for someone who is interested in making good, drinkable beer styles exist only as flavour guidelines, not as absolute traits that make a beer "good".

I'm not by any means saying Jamil or ANYONE makes bad beer, or that people's methods are wrong. Simply that different procedures yield different beers and it's up to the drinker to decide if that difference results in a better or worse beer. I, for instance, like esters a LOT, even in beers that have esters listed as "undesirable". My wife hates esters even in a style-perfect hefe.

Bobby_M said:
I'd really like to do a mini batch of some generic ale in two 1-gallon jugs where one is racked into a secondary and placed right next to the undisturbed other primary. Wait another 3 weeks and compare the clarity.

I'd actually like to do that as well, I'm kind of doubtful of everything until I've done it, or had first-hand evidence of it being done. I'm still too "new" to do that myself and still too low on my beer supply. :)

Bobby_M said:
I'd bet they'd be darn close.

I'd think so too. I'm willing to bet that the temp of the fermenters would be signifigantly more important to both taste and clarity. Perhaps that can be taken even further, perhaps some strains will produce better results in a single-stage while some produce better results with the use of a secondary. It would be interesting to see what your experiment yeilds if it actually interests you enough to try.
 
Bobby_M said:
Tell that to Jamil Z. He's not having any trouble with 3-4 week primaries. He mentioned more than once that extending primary and skipping secondary was one of the biggest improvements he's made in his process. I don't like putting too many people on a pedestal but he wins so many damn awards it's hard to ignore.

Yes I actually listened to that show on the "Leaving the beer on the trub" and I agree leaving it on the trub will not harm your beer. I have left mine on for a month with no ill effects....Good onld brewingnetwork.com :)
 
In theory, I'm totally bought in to the "yeast is good" point of view. I decided with my latest creation to primary for four weeks and secondary for one. I'm now going on five weeks in primary, but I'll maybe rack tonight. Due to a bottle shortage I'll probably keep it in secondary for at least two weeks.

Also, my trub straining talents suck. Most of what's in the brew pot ends up in my primary bucket. No off flavor problems so far with short primaries, but who knows what I'll find after five weeks on the muck:fro:
 
The “typical” homebrew process mirrors that of a normal brewery.

Crushing, mashing, sparging, cooking, cooling, pitching, fermenting, conditioning, clarifying, carbonating and packaging.

It’s hard to imagine a Stone Brewery, or a Sierra Nevada, Dog Fish Head, NewCastle Brewery or other top-craft brewer leaving their beer in the primary tanks any longer than is necessary for the fermentation to complete. They may have massive storage for clearing the beer and may allow for extended cask and bottle conditioning, but those primaries are producing their bread and butter. I’d be interested in knowing what the timeline is for some of those breweries.

I agree that yeast helps to clean up after itself and is a necessary component for conditioning. But how much is enough? How much might be too much? Let’s face it…yeast is always present in beer…even down to that last sip (unless filtered). If there is enough yeast to prime/condition beer in the bottle, how do we know that’s not enough for the “clean up” process as well?

I know that Jamil has recently espoused longer (and exclusive use of) primaries. I’m not so sure that is what has won him awards so much as his (self confessed) practice of stashing bottles away for months (sometimes years) and then discovering how they’ve matured (conditioned maybe?) to perfection in that time.

Maybe it is simply those trace amounts of yeast in the bottles that sit in his basement for 8 months that are winning him awards…and not 3 inches of trub at the bottom of his primary.

For me...anything 1.045 and higher gets 10-14 days in the primary and then to the secondary for conditioning.

Anything less than 1.045...once the hydro stops moving...tack on 48 hours and rack to secondary.

Will that win me awards???...not unless I bottle and stash for a year like Jamil :D

Brewery_Schematic.gif
 
Trub straining? Ha! I've recently just taken to dumping the entire pot into the carboy once it's semi-cooled, and let a little ice-water do the rest of the work :p. That is the advantage of partial boils :D.

I've personally left a hefe in primary for a month before kegging it cuz I was still getting frequent airlock activity; it came out quiet smooth and tasty. In fact, I'm drinking one now. It doesn't really have much of an estery taste (despite fermenting at hot*F), but there have been absolutely no problems with it. I've shared it with a few college buddies, some who brew and some who don't, and most tend to agree that it tastes much better than the standard brew.

I'm a lazy SOB, so if I can get away with it, just racking once (to keg) and still get comparable results, I'm more than open to the idea of no secondary. And it lets me have more batches going at once, too :D.
 
airlock bubble does NOT equal fermentation.
fermentation creates CO2. CO2 dissolves into solution. vibrations, temperature changes, and just randomness will cause finished beer to burp CO2.

this is why a hydrometer is the ONLY way to know if the beer is done or not. period.
 
Just took a Hydro reading. I started at 1.051. I am now at 1.017. I'll take 2 more readings, one toworrow night and another on Friday night. If the reading doesn't change, I'll rack to secondary on Saturday. And yes, the hydro reading tasted very Yummy, as far as Flat Beers go. :D


Just a side note, but I have always been the guy that has never let my beers sit for any lobger then 8 days in the Primary. This is the longest so far going on 16 days this evening. Also, I have never taken Hydrometer readings from the primary in fear of infection(and that's with 14 years of brewing). But with todays Star San, it just makes to much sense to insure that the Fermentation is done before I go racking into the Secondary. I am looking forward to trying this beer when it is bottled and carbonated.:mug:
 
malkore said:
airlock bubble does NOT equal fermentation.
fermentation creates CO2. CO2 dissolves into solution. vibrations, temperature changes, and just randomness will cause finished beer to burp CO2.

this is why a hydrometer is the ONLY way to know if the beer is done or not. period.

Hehehe, yeah I know that now. I was a noob back then; I got a good month's more experience now! :p ;)
 
BierMuncher said:
The “typical” homebrew process mirrors that of a normal brewery.

Crushing, mashing, sparging, cooking, cooling, pitching, fermenting, conditioning, clarifying, carbonating and packaging.

It’s hard to imagine a Stone Brewery, or a Sierra Nevada, Dog Fish Head, NewCastle Brewery or other top-craft brewer leaving their beer in the primary tanks any longer than is necessary for the fermentation to complete. They may have massive storage for clearing the beer and may allow for extended cask and bottle conditioning, but those primaries are producing their bread and butter. I’d be interested in knowing what the timeline is for some of those breweries.

I think most microbreweries have the beer out of the primary after a matter of a few days and almost certainly no longer than a week.
As you say its their bread and butter and they have to make sure to get it in and out again quickly, us homebrewers have the luxury of doing things differently, we don't have accountants on our backs.
I don't think we should always try to emulate what the breweries do, they can't afford long conditioning peroids to improve the beer, we can.
 
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