Saison du Vieux Bâtard Sale "Finished" at 1.017?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Evan!

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
11,835
Reaction score
115
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Never having done a saison before, but routinely having my beers finish in the upper teens, I'm not sure what to do here. I know saisons are supposed to finish low---and JZ's instructions for his saison say that if the saison yeast poop out too soon, to pitch with a simple ale yeast like 1056. But is 1.017 too low for the new yeast to even bother waking up? Would I be wasting a packet of US-05? I'm stumped, because I mashed this sucker at like 148-149 hoping to get high attenuation, so 1.017 is absurd. Especially with an OG of 1.060.

Originally, I pitched a nice 2-qt starter that was hopping along, and I had activity in maybe an hour. I left town for a couple days, and when I returned, it was already slowing down. I checked the sg and it was 1.030, way high. So I slowly brought the temps up to 80f, left it there for a couple days, and it got a little more activity. Then it finally gave up and stopped. At 1.017 :( . On any other beer I'd be cool with that, but Saisons are s'posed to dry out.

Any thoughts on this'n?
 
I had the same thing happen to my saison.. I had hell with it.. I pitched some dry yeast with no luck. I thought about adding champaign yeast or brett. But hydro sample tasted really good, so I let it be. I was stumped on mine because I used some sugar in it, mashed really low, mashed for 90 min. ,fermented warm, and used the saison 2 yeast which is suppose to attenuate better. Next time I make one, im doing an over night mash and adding brett.
 
What yeast strain did you use? WLP565? If so, that is one of the worst saison strains, it attenuates really poorly as I have found. One way to get the gravity to drop is to actually make a starter with a package of SafAle US05 (1056, 001, allthe same) but use your beer for making the starter and areate, that way the yeast get used to fermenting in an environment with alcohol. I have found that just dumping yeast into an already partially fermented environment does nothing, because what I assume to be the shock to the yeast.


Or...another option (which I did do with a saison) is to brew another beer with US-05, rack it to another carboy, then rack the saison onto the US-05 yeast cake. Doing this (it was with PacMan, not US-05) with a saison IPA I brewed got the gravity to drop from 1.026 to 1.017 (OG was 1.071).
 
Evan!, by my calculation, you are sitting at ~71% apparent attenuation right now. What is the yeast you used rated to? It may be all the lower it will go. Did you have an estimated FG you were shooting for?

I always say, if it tastes right, drink it :mug:
 
Boerderij Kabouter said:
Evan!, by my calculation, you are sitting at ~71% apparent attenuation right now. What is the yeast you used rated to? It may be all the lower it will go. Did you have an estimated FG you were shooting for?

I always say, if it tastes right, drink it :mug:

I was shooting for as low as was reasonable, close to 1.010. Saisons should finish dry. You are right, I'm at 71% Apparent---the 568 appears to be 70-80% expected.

This blend melds Belgian style ale and saison strains. The strains work in harmony to create complex, fruity aromas and flavors. The blend of yeast strains encourages complete fermentation in a timely manner. Phenolic, spicy, earthy, and clove like flavors are also created.
 
Evan! said:
I used the 568, the Saison Ale Blend.

I like your idea about pouring it onto another cake. Hmmm...


That sucks to hear, I was hoping one could get higher attenuation with this yeast...did you use a lot of sugar to boost gravity or a lot of grain? I love saisons, brewed two last year and want to do a lot more this year...I know you said you were out of town, but maybe a careful ramping of temp during fermentation could push it further.
 
What's the grain bill look like? You have any simple sugar in there? I'd also get the fermenter as warm as possible, you're past the point of having to worry about fusels. I need to re-brew a big Belgian, but I'm waiting until it gets into the 80°s so that I can get it to finish out (I'll start in the mid-60°s, but let it get real warm at the end; that worked great on my big Belgian last year).
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
That sucks to hear, I was hoping one could get higher attenuation with this yeast...did you use a lot of sugar to boost gravity or a lot of grain? I love saisons, brewed two last year and want to do a lot more this year...I know you said you were out of town, but maybe a careful ramping of temp during fermentation could push it further.

I used 8oz of turbinado, very few adjuncts, and mashed very low. Yeah, maybe if I had ramped it up, it would have done better...but such is life.
 
Sounds like you may be close to done.

You know, since you're kegging... Saisons should be pretty highly carbed anyway. If you bump up the carbonation level on this to the high end of the style, I bet you'll perceive it as being a bit drier.
 
the_bird said:
I'd also get the fermenter as warm as possible, you're past the point of having to worry about fusels.
That will work far better if you re-suspend the yeast every few days at the same time. If it's just sitting on the bottom, you won't get nearly as much action.
 
the_bird said:
What's the grain bill look like? You have any simple sugar in there? I'd also get the fermenter as warm as possible, you're past the point of having to worry about fusels. I need to re-brew a big Belgian, but I'm waiting until it gets into the 80°s so that I can get it to finish out (I'll start in the mid-60°s, but let it get real warm at the end; that worked great on my big Belgian last year).

I had it at 80f+ for several days, and roused the yeast several times during that period. It was pooped, because even after rousing with a sanitized cpvc tube, it just settled right back down into a very compact cake. I'm afraid it may be done...and yeah, it tastes great, so I guess I can just keg the bastard.

My problem, though, is that I forgot to account for my starter and ended up overshooting my volumes. I guess I could just make sure my bottling bucket is sanitized when I rack to the keg, and when the keg's full, just move the tube over to the bucket and use carb tabs. That's what I've been doing so far, but I keep forgetting to sanitized the bucket first and just end up taking my chances with unsanitized buckets. This time, I'm 100% sure I have more than 5 gallons.

Would you guys recommend a 2ndary for Saisons?
 
Time to finally get your hands dirty and add some Brett my friend. You've put it off long enough, take off the training bra......;) Seriously though, if you add another yeast strain get it going first, don't add it straight to 'wake-up' in the beer. Wake it up first(starter) and then dump it in, as per the advice on that saison podcast, get it in a warm place and you may be in business. Good luck.
 
Right, like I'm gonna ruin my saison by souring the bastard. :p When I get around to brett, etc., I'm gonna plan it from the get-go. Flanders Red is on my "to brew" list, so that'll be my first foray into soured beer.

We'll see. Maybe 1.017 will work.
 
My first saison ended up stopping at 1.020. I bottled it anyways it was the best beer I think I've brewed to date. Of course, I didn't let it get to bottle bombs because it was gone within a month of bottling, but it should be extra fine if you're kegging it.
 
One thing to try would be to make a starter with US-05 or equivalent, pitch at high krausen, and keep the temp in the 78-82 range. It's cheap, and would only take a day or so to see if it's working.

Racking onto a yeast cake would be a good second choice.

The beer may taste good at 1.017, but think about how much crisper the finish is going to be if you can get it down to 1.009 or so...worth the trouble for a saison, IMO.
 
I can't help you with you issue but just wanted to say that I really like the name of your brew!!!

I speak french so, I really like it when you guys give a french name to your batches! A name like yours is even better! :mug:

If ever you want some examples of Québec swear words (there would be some sweet names in there for you guys!) just PM me!
 
Evan,

If you have JZ's book look on page 207. It sounds just like your situation. JZ says you need to add Champagne yeast.

Its also supposed to drier than a MOFO. Did use a pound of cane sugar? The other thing is to be patient and let it crank.

I'd really go with the dry yeast option. For $0.59 @ Northern Brewer. Can't go wrong! Even if it does nothing, it will not ruin it a bit.

redstar-champagne.jpg

http://www.northernbrewer.com/wine-yeast.html
 
Thanky for the input! After all that, I decided that, wth, I have a freakin' CAKE of FORBIDDEN FRUIT from my witbier that I just kegged. I was waiting to wash/harvest it. The wit was low-OG so the yeast isn't too stressed, and it's not like the spices in the wit trub would hurt a saison. So I just racked it and am slowly raising the temps towards the upper 70's. We'll see what happens. If a full cake of FF yeast doesn't eat those sugars, then f*ck'em...they can stay in there. :D
 
Holy crap! A roaring success! I honestly wasn't expecting much from the FF cake. Dunno, just not usually something that works. Woke up this morning, nothing to see. So I stirred the carboy up and let it be. The room's about 85f.

Just checked it. It actually has a new krausen!!! It's definitely going full tilt again. I guess there WERE some fermentables still hangin out in there! No idea where it'll end up, but I'm guessing the wit yeast will take it down to where it needs to be, and maybe add a touch more complexity at the same time. I'm thrilled!
 
Yeah, so, the forbidden Fruit yeast worked its magic, and my faith in my thermometers has been restored. I racked to secondary last night and the sample read 1.010. :D:D
 
Told ya so! (<--Isn't that annoying). I can tell you all from experience, just dumping a pack of champagne yeast (or any other yeast for that matter from a pack, smack pack, or tube) WILL NOT WORK! There is not enough yeast in a pack and they will not reproduce in oxygen deprived wort, and dumping them in a beer with plenty of alcohol already will just kill them. The yeast in a cake is primed, used to alcohol, and ready to eat any sugar. This is the way go go!
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
Told ya so! (<--Isn't that annoying). I can tell you all from experience, just dumping a pack of champagne yeast (or any other yeast for that matter from a pack, smack pack, or tube) WILL NOT WORK! There is not enough yeast in a pack and they will not reproduce in oxygen deprived wort, and dumping them in a beer with plenty of alcohol already will just kill them. The yeast in a cake is primed, used to alcohol, and ready to eat any sugar. This is the way go go!

You said to go with a US-05 cake, beeyotch! So you still fail! ;)

OTOH, my RIS that finished high got a nice dosing from a nottingham starter and it's dropped another 12-14 points since then. So I guess if you're gonna use a dry packet to restart a stalled fermentation, a starter is necessary.

I'm just relieved that both of my recent stalled fermentations have turned out well. 1.010 is awesome, like 83% attenuation!
 
Back
Top