fermenting HOT

although i've seen this topic touched on in a few threads, i couldn't find anyone who has reported back with their experiences.

i'm going to brew a saison dupont clone tomorrow, and i want to try the dupont brewery's fermentation methods of 3 days at around 90 degrees. i have a space heater and an extra bedroom. i'm using recultured yeast from a bottle of saison dupont.

has anyone here had success with fermenting this hot? any tips/tricks/advice?

thanks!

You're going to ramp up to that temperature correct? I would not start there, but after 24 hours - 48 hours of visible fermentation raise the temp. I've only had one saison possibly get that hot, when I placed the wrapped carboy next to a space heater, but I can't say for sure if it got into the 90F's. I think you could raise the temp into the 80's and as long as you don't see fermentation slow, then keep going to 90. If it starts to slow it may be too hot, Jamil commented on this on the Saison show when he reached 90 - that the yeast actually slowed down because it was too hot.

You might try getting a cheap aquarium heater and mounting it to the inside of a igloo ice box cooler and keeping the water at the temp you want, then just put a small aquarium pump in there to circulate the water so it distributes the heat evenly.

Are you sure about starting low? I read this somewhere else:

If you cannot run your ferment at 90 with the Dupont strain, then plan on a very long and drawn out primary (weeks to a couple of months). If you can ferment at 90, then it will finish (and finish very complete) within days. A 75 degree F ferment could take a couple of months.

The key is to ferment at 90 from the start. Starting cool and then having to heat the brew later on to keep the ferment from slowing can have adverse effects on the beer. Prolonged fermentation at high temps can lead to oxidation and off flavors.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories

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slim chillingsworth said:

Are you sure about starting low? I read this somewhere else:

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Go with Jess, she Rockxorz! I'd go with her over Jamil anyday. I think they mention in Farmhouse Ales that the Dupont strian may be a 'mutanized' version of a red wine yeast, thus the ability to ferment warm without producing a lot of fusel alcohols....seem to remember something like that. I know myself, and a lot of others use the ramp up method, I wait ~24 hours at 68F and then ~12 hours at 70's then into 80s+, but I always go with what Jess tells me. Try it out and let us know how it works.:rockin:

Interesting stuff. I had hell with the saison yeast. I would be interested to see if starting hot helps with attenuation. Please keep this updated on how this works out.

brewed relatively smoothly, chilled to 95 to a corrected OG of 1.063 (target was 1.060). i got the heater to a nice balance that has been holding at 95 all day and i just dropped the carboy in there with a sweater on. will return with updates.

slim chillingsworth said:

brewed relatively smoothly, chilled to 95 to a corrected OG of 1.063 (target was 1.060). i got the heater to a nice balance that has been holding at 95 all day and i just dropped the carboy in there with a sweater on. will return with updates.

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Awesome, it will be great to knock Jamil down a few notches. Seriously though, he can't be right all the time( I hope). I hope it goes well and I'm looking forward to hearing more.

well, a slow start is out of the question. 3 hours in and i have an inch and a half of krausen, steady bubbles, and yeast dancing happily.


we'll see what comes of it. i've been reading up a bit and it looks like the best course of action is to leave it hot until it drops under 1.010 and then transfer to either 75 degrees for a couple of weeks or cold condition around 40.

slim please keep us updated.

I am 3 days into a Hennepin clone. Started Thursday PM at 72F. Friday I added a heat blanket on high. Saturday added a space heater. Don't know the exact temp but its a fair bit above room temp. I'll def. keep everyone updated on the results. The yeast was Wyeast Saison.

I'm looking forward to this one!

well, we're at about 72 hours now, and i'm down to 1.032. been fairly consistently keeping temp around 90-95.

tasted the hydrometer sample and it was very nice, highly estery with a slight funk. very spot-on for a dupont clone.

will keep updating.

Very interesting. I have always heard people have a lot of trouble with this strain. This might be why.

I was wondering if you had any other sources, or account of people running their fermentation that hot? I am about to start a saison as well and would like to read up.

Thanks.

Beerrific said:

Very interesting. I have always heard people have a lot of trouble with this strain. This might be why.

I was wondering if you had any other sources, or account of people running their fermentation that hot? I am about to start a saison as well and would like to read up.

Thanks.

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http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewin...-Of-Wyeast-3726-Farmhouse-Ale-Yeast-1593.html

read a couple of other things that i can't find at the moment. sorry.

ok, it's been 6 days and we seem to have settled in at 1.030. i'll be taking the temp down slowly. i might pitch some fresh yeast from another dupont bottle or something else.

open to suggestions as i do some research.

this is the thread i was looking for earlier that gave me a lot of basis for this experiment:

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1116987459&pg=&tpg=1

slim chillingsworth said:

ok, it's been 6 days and we seem to have settled in at 1.030. i'll be taking the temp down slowly. i might pitch some fresh yeast from another dupont bottle or something else.

open to suggestions as i do some research.

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Throw some Brett in it.:rockin:

Ryanh1801 said:

Throw some Brett in it.:rockin:

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i will on the next batch, but i'm using this as an experiment with ferm temps and i want to keep it somewhat controlled so i can note the results.

I have Wyeast 3724 on the way and it lists the upper threshold for this yeast at 90 degrees. Would I benefit from fermenting it between the 80s and 90?

EinGutesBier said:

I have Wyeast 3724 on the way and it lists the upper threshold for this yeast at 90 degrees. Would I benefit from fermenting it between the 80s and 90?

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finding the answer to that question is the point of this experiment. read this page:
http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewin...-Of-Wyeast-3726-Farmhouse-Ale-Yeast-1593.html


if you ferment at lower temps it will be a longer fermentation.

after 3 days at 75 and no movement i tossed in some muntons dry yeast to help push things along. the dupont yeast seems to have been worn out by such a vigorous primary.

Given slim's experience, I wonder if I should just pitch the yeast at a cooler temp for my saison (75 F°) or take my chances on a warmer temp in the 80s. I have some time, so enduring a longer fermentation should be ok.

slim chillingsworth said:

after 3 days at 75 and no movement i tossed in some muntons dry yeast to help push things along. the dupont yeast seems to have been worn out by such a vigorous primary.

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So the results of the experiment in your opinion?

So, the e-mail you got from Wyeast and all the other stuff I have read about fermenting at 90F is talking about how Dupont handles their yeast assumes that you are using the primary strain that Dupont uses. What is the Wyeast number that you referenced when e-mailing them?

So looking at: http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm.

It says Wyeast 3724 is the same as WLP565. Wyeast advertises fermenting that yeast high but White Labs does not. Are they the same yeast? It also says that WLP566 is the yeast from Saison Dupont Vieille Provision but not the same as the other two.

Also, if you listen to the Jamil show on Saison, Chris White said that you will not have good results if you use the 565 hot.

It seems that repitching goes with the territory. Remember Jamil's experience with the 565 - he couldn't get it to dry out on its own. Frankly, if you're going for high-temperature funk as well as a dry beer, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using two yeast strains. There'd have been hell of more yeasts than that in whatever the original farmhouses pitched.
FWIW, I've ramped up 70-86 with Jenlain 3711 and 68-75 with Westmalle 3787, and had both dry out below 1.010. I might Brett a couple bottles of the Jenlain saison at bottling with Orval dregs.

Well, as I mentioned, I recultured yeast from a bottle of Saison Dupont. I don't know if they bottle with the same strain they use in their primary, but I was not using anything from Wyeast.

Given slim's experience, I wonder if I should just pitch the yeast at a cooler temp for my saison (75 F°) or take my chances on a warmer temp in the 80s. I have some time, so enduring a longer fermentation should be ok.

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My fermentation was in the 90s, maybe you will have a more thorough fermentation in the 80s. My goal was not to have a shorter fermentation, but rather to create the estery flavor profile that Dupont has, which they claim is accomplished by the high fermentation temps.

That being said,

So the results of the experiment in your opinion?

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will not be known until the beer is in my glass. I can make the following comments about the primary fermentation:

-90-95 may have been too high, and it's likely that my methods of heating fluctuated too much and allowed the temperature to get too high at some points in the day, hurting the fermentation.

-my yeast starter was only about one pint. i would like to see if a larger starter would have done a more thorough job.

-there was no control in this experiment, so next time i would like to ferment half a batch at 75 and half at 90.

slim chillingsworth said:

will not be known until the beer is in my glass..

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Except you added another yeast, my point was that your experiment with the Dupont strain is over - anything/results from here on will be from two yeasts, not just the Dupont strain.

landhoney said:

Except you added another yeast, my point was that your experiment with the Dupont strain is over - anything/results from here on will be from two yeasts, not just the Dupont strain.

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well, to some extent, but not really. that would be the equivalent of saying that experimenting with something like first wort hopping or mash hopping would end when you did a late hop addition. the dupont strain experiment will have contributed a certain flavor profile to the finished beer. from my samplings during gravity readings i should be able to pick out those flavors, which is why i chose a neutral, general-purpose yeast rather than another saison strain or something with a lot of character. it won't be as pure of an experiment, but it will still be relevant, i think.

update: about two weeks after pitching the muntons yeast, holding steady at about 1.012, i'm starting to get some patchy white growth of something or other across the top. no camera at the moment.

what temp did you keep it at after pitching the muntons yeast?

started at 72, dropped it slowly to 65 because i had to put another carboy in the same fridge and wanted to start that one a bit lower.

slim chillingsworth said:

started at 72, dropped it slowly to 65 because i had to put another carboy in the same fridge and wanted to start that one a bit lower.

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Have you tried this yet? I picked up a bottle of Saison DuPont at HEB today.

It's on tap now, and it's drinking wonderfully. It started out a bit off, but has mellowed a lot in the past couple of weeks. There are a lot of funky yeasty flavors from the hot fermentation that blend really well with the traditional dry saison character. I have not yet done a side-by-side with Dupont, but the brew is really nice.

If you'll be in Austin any time soon, you're more than welcome to come have a taste.

Side by Side Comparison:

Homebrew

Aroma is spicy with some faint sourness and a touch of alcohol. Murky orange-brown color with a thin but well-lacing white head. Flavor is off-dry, with a citrus sweetness rounding it out. Palate is sharp with carbonation, coating and full bodied.

Dupont

Spicy clove nose with a light sourness, wild yeast, grass, lemon, and something almost rubbery. Cloudy orange pour with a dense, thick, bubbly white head leaving great lacing. Nice soft palate with a creamy mouthfeel and light carbonation. Flavor is complex, a good sourness with a wheat background.

Comparison

This recipe does not successfully clone Saison Dupont. The color, clarity, and head retention are off, though the lacing is close to the original. The flavor profiles are similar, particularly in their citrus character, but the Dupont has a more crisp, bright opening and more grain presence. The clone is tasty, highly drinkable, and well-rounded, but does not capture the essence of the original.

slim chillingsworth said:

It's on tap now, and it's drinking wonderfully.
If you'll be in Austin any time soon, you're more than welcome to come have a taste.

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damn, i just noticed this thread, and i was in austin last weekend! i hope that offer is still good next time i'm in town. i'll bring a few for comparison.
ah, wlp565.... i've studied everything i can get my hands on about this yeast (including markowski's book) and am terribly unsatisfied with it's consistency. two years ago i did a saison that was exactly what i was looking for, much like the dupont you describe. recently i haven't had much luck with it. a couple of weeks ago did a 10 gallon batch, split it, and fermented one in the house (starting at 78 deg., ramping up to ??) and one in the garage (daytime temp. of 95) and after two weeks they both were weighing in at 1.020. i just goosed it a bit with some actively fermenting wyeast 3787 from a belgian dark strong. oh, well on the slight color contribution.
i did a 10 gallon batch a while back where i put the wlp 565 on half and used the other half as a "starter" for a tripel, building up a population of wyeast 3787. the 565 labored away for weeks and only got down to 1.010, while the 3787 blew through the same wort taking it from 1.063 to 1.000 in 5 days! it doesn't quite have the character that the 565 does as it's lacking the sourness, but it has plenty of spice and subtle fruity flavor and aroma.
i'm going to keep messing with the 565 this summer, but i'm only going to give it so many chances before moving on to something more predictable.
the best beer it's given me recently is a dark strong saison that apparently finished out at 1.016. i'll watch for bubbling bottle caps in case it gets a second wind...

oh, duh.
that offer was for edwort, huh? didn't mean to invite myself. i was skimming and took it as a general invite. oops.