Mini Mashing for the Noob - The next step for Extractors

I want to thank Yoopers for pointing me in the right direction about Mini Mashing.

I read some new brewers asking "what's next" after doing extracts. I mentioned "Recipes" and as I was looking at recipes I found one that would have to have Mini Mashing because it used some sort of non-steeping grain.

I looked into mini mashing and found a ton of information but it was all rather wordy on why this and why that. NOT that that is a bad thing but I feel the basics were needed and THEN you can look into the whys.

Fear of the unknown can be rather large at times.

So here is how to mini mash in few words.

You need two stock pots.

in one - bring 2.5 gallons of water to 160F and turn off heat.
Put your crush grains into a grain bag.

in the other bring water to 170.

Soak grains in the hot water for 45 minutes - try to keep the temp in the 155 range

After soaking dunk the grain bag in and out of the water a few times and then lift it completely out.

Put a strainer over that pot and put grain bag in strainer.

in second pot you should have water at 170.

Gently pour 1 quart of water per 2 pounds of grain over grain. You want the water to flow through the grains, not separate them.

allow grain bag to drip - don't squeeze - just let it drip naturally until it's all dripped out.

DONE - you now have water for the boil and continue as if you just got done steeping.

These instructions were lifted from Austin Homebrew instructions and were exactly what I needed to have in my minds eye.

For me learning is easier if I can picture what I'm about to so.


Did I miss anything???

Grinder12000 said:

Gently pour 1 quart of water per 2 pounds of grain over grain. You want the water to flow through the grains, not separate them.

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Did you mean 2 quarts water per 1 pound grain? This is pretty typical with most sparging.

yeqmaster said:

Did you mean 2 quarts water per 1 pound grain? This is pretty typical with most sparging.

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It's 1 qt/2 lbs in these instructions - probably to keep the boil volume manageable for kitchen brewers. The mash itself is quite thin though (2.5-3.5 lbs of grain in 2.5 gallons of water).

I have stuck pretty closely to the AHS instructions and gotten good results.

That's how I did my mini-mashes. Easy-squeezy.

-Joe

As ArcaneXor said. 1qt/2 lb my mashs are all about 2.5 to 3 lb.

I understand the 155-160 steeping part, but see limited additional benefit by pouring the additional 170 through the grains other than squeezing out a bit more of the sugars/starches.

But I've never done it, so please educate me.

FSBrewer said:

I understand the 155-160 steeping part, but see limited additional benefit by pouring the additional 170 through the grains other than squeezing out a bit more of the sugars/starches.

But I've never done it, so please educate me.

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It increases your efficiency - rinsing out additional sugar from the grains. You don't have to do it, but you'd need a bit more base grain to compensate (not sure how much - there are more experienced people who may be able to answer that),

It's called sparging. However, pouring the water through the grain in a strainer is about as half-a$$ed a fly sparge as I've ever heard of. In any case though, when you're mini mashing only 2-3 pounds, the sparge is only going to vary your OG by maybe 2 points. So, even if you extracted every bit of sugar, you're looking at adding 1.002.

I've countertop mini-mashed in exactly the same way I do all grain.

Mix 1.25 qts 165F water per pound in any vessel you want,stir and hold at 153F for 60 minutes.

Pour the whole thing into a strainer over another container (pot, bucket, bowl).

Add the grain back into the first vessel and add 1qt per pound of 180F water in and stir well. Throw that all into the stainer again.

That's a batch sparge mini mash.

So, just to use real numbers... say 4lbs of grain.

Strike water is 5 quarts. After the mash, you'll collect about 3 quarts of wort from this step.
The sparge step is adding 4 quarts back to the damp grain and you'll collect all 4 quarts this time.

Total wort in the kettle will be 7 quarts or nearly 2 gallons.

ArcaneXor said:

It's 1 qt/2 lbs in these instructions - probably to keep the boil volume manageable for kitchen brewers. The mash itself is quite thin though (2.5-3.5 lbs of grain in 2.5 gallons of water).

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I see... I haven't done a mini mash for a while and when I did I was pretty loose on how I did everything. I was just assuming it was like all grain...

Bobby_M - that sounds like a mini mash followed by a steeping.

The only difference is water quantities and instead of pouring water of the mash you are sort of dunking the mash.

I can see dunking might get you a little more.

Once again guys...

Bobby_M said:

It's called sparging.

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Also... is a typical batch sparge a 1:1 quart/lb ratio? I have always read that the ratio should be the same as if you were doing a fly sparge and I always use a 2:1 ratio.

Back to the main topic... I agree with previous post that it would be better to do a mini-mash the same as you would do an all grain. Better efficiency and more controlled. However if you are going to fallow the directions given, this will obviously work as well... considering it from a credible HBS. By doing it there way, you are focusing more on extracting as much flavor as you can from the mini-mash, and not worrying too much about your efficiency. Because you will be adding plenty of extract, your fermentable sugars will basically be guaranteed. In the long run, I don't think it will make to big a difference what you do.

True about the extract adding the sugars needed.

I can see how this lazy style of mashing would not work on AG as you would not get the fermentable's.

Thanks - I brew - I tweak - I learn - it's all a process!

I don't really like referring to the sparge volume as a water to grain ratio even though I did it for simplicity's sake. In PM or AG brewing, you really have two limiting factors in how much you'll sparge with. One is how much room you have in your kettle (also stated as how long you're willing to boil down to your finished batch size). The other is how much sparging you can get away with before you overdo it (PH out of range). In reality, yes, I tend to sparge at about 1.75 qts per pound. (my last batch was 8 gallons of sparge in 19 pounds of grain so that's 1.68, close enough)

I was thinking that most extract brewers do a typical boil volume of 2 gallons so I was shooting for that amount of preboil wort.

Grinder, I never really though of batch sparging as a "steep" but I see it now. The idea is to get the sparge water and grain fully mixed again to allow more sugar to diffuse into the water. The water that results from the mashing step will typically contain 55-60% of all the sugar the grain had to offer. Sparging with any method usually gives you an additional 10-30% more which isn't all that important in a small partial mash batch. Carry on....

I'm a real newbie, so forgive me. I'm just trying to get behind the point of all of this. (And I know I am missing something). How is this different than just steeping the grains in your water at 155F before you add extract?

I know I had a kit that gave me some Carapils that I just steeped for 30 minutes at 155F in a muslin bag. What is the difference between this (other than just efficiency) and a mini-mash?

Another big question. When calculating the grain bill. If I mini-mash the way you guys are saying - grain that I would have normally just steeped and added extract to compensate for the fermentables that i wouldn't have gotten out of the grain. can I then count that grain as part of my fermentable?

And if so why? what's the difference.

Thanks for bearing with me

timothywilliam said:

I'm a real newbie, so forgive me. I'm just trying to get behind the point of all of this. (And I know I am missing something). How is this different than just steeping the grains in your water at 155F before you add extract?

I know I had a kit that gave me some Carapils that I just steeped for 30 minutes at 155F in a muslin bag. What is the difference between this (other than just efficiency) and a mini-mash?

Another big question. When calculating the grain bill. If I mini-mash the way you guys are saying - grain that I would have normally just steeped and added extract to compensate for the fermentables that i wouldn't have gotten out of the grain. can I then count that grain as part of my fermentable?

And if so why? what's the difference.

Thanks for bearing with me

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Mashing activates enzymes to convert starches to sugar. Steeping just extracts pre-converted sugars, i.e. no conversion takes place when you do it.

ArcaneXor said:

Mashing activates enzymes to convert starches to sugar. Steeping just extracts pre-converted sugars, i.e. no conversion takes place when you do it.

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I think Tim's question is how is a steep at 155F any different from a mash at 155F, besides the name?

For example, in Bobby's post:

Bobby_M said:

I've countertop mini-mashed in exactly the same way I do all grain.

Mix 1.25 qts 165F water per pound in any vessel you want,stir and hold at 153F for 60 minutes.

Pour the whole thing into a strainer over another container (pot, bucket, bowl).

Add the grain back into the first vessel and add 1qt per pound of 180F water in and stir well. Throw that all into the stainer again.

Click to expand...

Is it just the length of time the grains are in the water?

-Joe

nostalgia said:

I think Tim's question is how is a steep at 155F any different from a mash at 155F, besides the name?

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At its most basic, it's not different - you just need to keep a closer eye on the temperature, and a mash usually takes longer than steeping.

If you can steep specialty grains and you have a way of keeping your temperatures constant for 45 minutes to an hour, you can mini-mash.

I see the problem here as I'm a newbie at this also.

There are two types of grains = Specialty grains that you can steep like tee to get the aroma and flavor.

The base grais where you need to BASICALLY "steep" for a much longer time. You do not need to mash all grains - only base grains (and you might as well through it the specialty at the same time).

So it's the type of grain that determines steep or mash.

Grinder12000 said:

I see the problem here as I'm a newbie at this also.

There are two types of grains = Specialty grains that you can steep like tee to get the aroma and flavor.

The base grais where you need to BASICALLY "steep" for a much longer time. You do not need to mash all grains - only base grains (and you might as well through it the specialty at the same time).

So it's the type of grain that determines steep or mash.

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No I got that much... I was wondering what is different (for mash only grains) between the processes. It seems like mashing is only steeping except that water is poured through it... I just wasn't sure what the difference is.

It however has been somewhat answered... i think... i will read more.

Think of it this way: mashing IS steeping, you just monitor and control it more closely. There is almost no physical difference between no-sparge mashing and steeping. There is, however, a conceptual difference. When mashing, you intend to extract sugar from the grain through enzymatic processes controlled by mash volume, temperature, and grain choice. When steeping, you're simply trying to extract a bit of color and flavor.

As for sparging: it's rinsing. It doesn't matter whether you:
Drain the mash tun, then add some more hot water and drain again (batch sparging).

OR

Continuously rinse the grain bed with hot water (fly sparging).

When steeping, you don't really worry about the exact temperature or water to grain ratio. When mashing, you do. I also want to mention that adding a portion of "base grain" to the mix will provide enough enzymes to actually convert the specialty malts to extractable sugar. A simple steep of specialty grain has no enzymatic activity at all.

Let me compare two "steep/mash" examples:

1 lb of steeped crystal 10L by itself, might get you 1.015 PPG. The sugars are only partially converted in lighter crystal malts (so I read).
1lb of mashed crystal 10L + 1lb of 2-row will get you something like 1.060 PPG.

Of course, that's in addition to the benefit of getting cheaper extract and opening up all those base grains that need to be mashed like Vienna, Munich and other adjuncts like oats.

Say I had a 7.5 gallon pot, how much more can I up the strike and sparge water volume without getting out of wack with the PH? Seems that if I can do a bigger boil then more water would lead to more fermentable sugars right? Or would the gain be negligable?

MN_Jay said:

Say I had a 7.5 gallon pot, how much more can I up the strike and sparge water volume without getting out of wack with the PH? Seems that if I can do a bigger boil then more water would lead to more fermentable sugars right? Or would the gain be negligable?

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A bigger boil is always a good idea! What you can do if you are mini mashing, is to mash with 1.25 or 1.3 quarts of water per pound of grain, and then sparge with up to .5 gallon/pound of grain. If you only have, say, 4 pounds of grain, though, that would only give you a tad over 3 gallons of mash and sparge runnings. (Due to the grain absorbing some of the mash water). So, you could add water to bring you to 6 gallons, and start your boil that way.

If you were using, say, 6 pounds of grain, you'd have 4.75-ish gallons of wort, so you could top up to 6 gallons from there.

You don't want to mash with more than about 1.5 quarts per pound, or to sparge with more than .5 gallons per pound. If you do less than that, you won't have any ph issues.

A bigger boil will not lead to more fermentable sugars- I mean, the amount of sugars are static, whether you have 2 gallons of wort, or 6 gallons. But, the bigger boil helps to keep the sugars from carmelizing and darkening and you'd have less chance of an "extract-y" tasting beer if you do a partial mash and a full boil. You also increase your hops utilization by boiling a lower gravity wort.

Thanks Yooper, that's exactly what I was looking for. Incidently I didn't mean that a bigger boil would lead to more fermentable sugars, my question was that more sparging should lead to more. Thanks again, I think my next brew day will be a mini mash.