BrewTarget v.s. Priceless BIAB Calc

[nobadays]

Just finished brewing what was to be a low ABV Pale Ale. I have been using Brew Target for recipe building for a couple of years now...and I like it. That said this is not the first time I have over shot my OG, as a matter of fact I almost always over shoot what Brew Target tells me. I use Priceless BIAB Calculator mainly to give me the volume of strike water I need for a particular brew. I use the advanced calculator so it also gives me an estimate of the OG after boil (and for other points in the process.)

So this beer had an estimated OG by Brew Target of 1.040 and an ABV of just 4%...what I was looking for. Priceless on the other hand set the estimated OG at 1.046. My actual OG was 1.048. If this finishes at 1.011 where Brew Target estimates it will give me a 4.86% beer.

Normally I don't get very excited at all about hitting my numbers, a bit higher or lower within reason and I'm happy...the beer is always good! But in this case I was really shooting for a "lawnmower" beer, something low in ABV so I could have 3 or 4 on a hot day...and they are all hot even here in North Central AZ this time of year!

Here is the recipe if anyone wants to figure out where I'm going wrong..

16 gallon Kettle - 15.5" Diameter
Boil off rate ~1.6
Kettle Loss ~ 1.25

Strike water volume 9.57 gallons

Size: 5.75 gallons
Yeast US-05

Grain:
7# 2 Row
3# Munich
12oz Crystal 10L
6oz Carapils

1oz Cascade @ 20min
1oz Centennial @ 10min
1.5oz Citra @ 5min
1oz Centennial @ 170* for 30 minutes
Dry Hop:
1.5oz Citra
1.5oz Centennial

Not sure if more is needed...or anyone will be interested..but thanks in advance!!

Cheers! Don

 

[jtratcliff]

I also use both for different things.... But I've found brewtarget to be pretty close...

Do all your other numbers come out OK (correct boil off, and other losses, etc) and just OG is off?
Does your assumed efficiency match you what you actually get? A mis-match there, could throw off your numbers a bit, I would think. Recipe targets 70% and you're getting 80%, say...

 

[nobadays]

Efficiency could be a big part of the answer now that you mention it. I think Priceless is set at 95% and Brew Target is at 70%. Mash loss was a little less this brew as was the boil off - .80 (should have been around 1 gallon...must have squeezed harder!) and 1.43 respectively. Which only complicates it more as this would seem to mean less concentrated wort. Other than that the numbers seemed pretty close.

I often get 85% to 95% efficiency with a 90 minute mash - recirculating, PID controlled temps.

I just re-set Brew Target to 90% efficiency and it showed the expected OG at 1.052... @ 85% - 1.049. Hmmmm I think you're on to something! All this time I have kept the efficiency low in BT and come in higher on my OG than the estimate... too simple!

Cheers!! Don

 

[doug293cz]

Efficiency could be a big part of the answer now that you mention it. I think Priceless is set at 95% and Brew Target is at 70%. Mash loss was a little less this brew as was the boil off - .80 (should have been around 1 gallon...must have squeezed harder!) and 1.43 respectively. Which only complicates it more as this would seem to mean less concentrated wort. Other than that the numbers seemed pretty close.

I often get 85% to 95% efficiency with a 90 minute mash - recirculating, PID controlled temps.

I just re-set Brew Target to 90% efficiency and it showed the expected OG at 1.052... @ 85% - 1.049. Hmmmm I think you're on to something! All this time I have kept the efficiency low in BT and come in higher on my OG than the estimate... too simple!

Cheers!! Don

The 70% efficiency in BrewTarget is either mash efficiency or brewhouse efficiency. The 95% in Priceless is the default conversion efficiency. Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. Priceless calculates an estimated lauter efficiency based on the grain absorption rate, grain bill size, and mash tun loss that you input. This has the advantage of automatically taking the effect of large grain bills on efficiency into account. I don't know of any other "mass market" brew software that does this. Conversion efficiency can actually reach 100%, but lauter efficiency always less than 100%. Priceless will estimate your mash efficiency based on the assumed conversion efficiency and the estimated lauter efficiency.

If your first runnings SG come out higher than estimated by Priceless, that means either your grain bill potential is higher than you input, and/or your conversion efficiency was higher than the default 95%.

Higher volumes than estimated can be due to overachieving on squeezing (lower grain absorption rate.) This will not affect the first runnings SG, but will increase lauter efficiency and therefore mash efficiency.

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Just finished brewing what was to be a low ABV Pale Ale. I have been using Brew Target for recipe building for a couple of years now...and I like it.

Thanks for the comments, you can always tag me in a threat here as well if you have any questions, although often someone else will cover the topic before I even get a chance to see it now that works blocked HBT on the wifi

Anyways, what they've said so far is 100% true. But to clarify a bit on what dougs saying, in regards to efficiency (and therefore gravity calculations), everyone else (beersmith, brewtarget, brewersfriend, literally any other piece of brew software) is really just calculating it based on what the user (read:you) inputs for the brewhouse efficiency.

My calculator estimates the lauter efficiency, and therefore all the gravity calculations based on the recipe, and your mash and sparge process. This accounts, or at least attempts to, for any changes in sparge/mash, as well as increasing/decreasing grain bills.

Thanks go to doug for that efficiency part, as I would not have been able to get that in place nearly as quickly without re-deriving braukaisers findings, and of course braukaisers amazing work and wiki.

As far as brewtarget goes, I'm a big fan of the team and what they've come up with so far. I like the user interface a lot, but find the mash and volume part of the software to be a big vote downwards, it's clunky and theres multiple ways to set up (design/wizard/manually adding steps), and it's 100% possible to set up a mash or boil volume that does not match your equipment profile in the software. They've been made aware of this, but it's not something that will be fixed in the near future. Waiting on them to finish version 2.4 before I attempt to work on brewtarget in anyway meaningful way. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute something in that line, and maybe even get some efficiency estimations, like my calculator does, in place!

In the meanwhile, I'm always working on a new all-in-one webapp/desktop software that will do recipe design as well as some new tricks/features I've though of that you might find interesting. Anyone want some sneak previews/beta testing, send me a message or email and I'll send it along when it's ready!

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks for the comments, you can always tag me ...

Except that tagging is currently broken on HBT, and has been for a while. Management knows about it, but there are other things that need to be taken care of before fixing tagging.

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Except that tagging is currently broken on HBT, and has been for a while. Management knows about it, but there are other things that need to be taken care of before fixing tagging.

Brew on

Welp. Thanks for the heads up

 

[nobadays]

Thank you - Doug/Priceless for shedding a little more light on what is going on here.

Are you saying that setting the efficiency in Brew Target at the same or near the same as in Priceless Calc. I'm not setting for the correct efficiency point? Is it possible to run the numbers through Priceless Calc. then adjust the efficiency in Brew Target - keep going back and forth as it will change - until finding a balance?

All of this is a bit above my head in that as I stated earlier I just haven't worried too bad about my numbers until now. I will try to do some more reading to understand the different points of efficiency... brew house/mash/lauter. I do think I have Brew Target set up pretty closely to my equipment profile... I followed someones guide (Priceless?) to setting it up for BIAB.


Thank you again!

Cheers!! Don

 

[thunderwagn]

Thanks for the comments, you can always tag me in a threat here as well if you have any questions, although often someone else will cover the topic before I even get a chance to see it now that works blocked HBT on the wifi

Anyways, what they've said so far is 100% true. But to clarify a bit on what dougs saying, in regards to efficiency (and therefore gravity calculations), everyone else (beersmith, brewtarget, brewersfriend, literally any other piece of brew software) is really just calculating it based on what the user (read:you) inputs for the brewhouse efficiency.

My calculator estimates the lauter efficiency, and therefore all the gravity calculations based on the recipe, and your mash and sparge process. This accounts, or at least attempts to, for any changes in sparge/mash, as well as increasing/decreasing grain bills.

Thanks go to doug for that efficiency part, as I would not have been able to get that in place nearly as quickly without re-deriving braukaisers findings, and of course braukaisers amazing work and wiki.

As far as brewtarget goes, I'm a big fan of the team and what they've come up with so far. I like the user interface a lot, but find the mash and volume part of the software to be a big vote downwards, it's clunky and theres multiple ways to set up (design/wizard/manually adding steps), and it's 100% possible to set up a mash or boil volume that does not match your equipment profile in the software. They've been made aware of this, but it's not something that will be fixed in the near future. Waiting on them to finish version 2.4 before I attempt to work on brewtarget in anyway meaningful way. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute something in that line, and maybe even get some efficiency estimations, like my calculator does, in place!

In the meanwhile, I'm always working on a new all-in-one webapp/desktop software that will do recipe design as well as some new tricks/features I've though of that you might find interesting. Anyone want some sneak previews/beta testing, send me a message or email and I'll send it along when it's ready!

I'm stepping away from BIAB for awhile and moving on to a rectangular cooler and batch sparging. That's my plan and what I have parts for anyway. I look forward to putting the priceless calc through its paces with my new setup. The software has served me well in conjunction with BF for my BIAB batches. I'm open to any new advances!

 

[rlager]

Nobadays? How did you reset the efficiency on Brewtarget?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Nobadays? How did you reset the efficiency on Brewtarget?

In the main window, in the recipe section, there's a user input box for "Efficiency (%)".