Polyclar VT?

[aeviaanah]

I’ve been thinking of using Polyclar VT with whirlfloc at end of boil. Anyone else doing this?

 

[MSK_Chess]

I’ve been thinking of using Polyclar VT with whirlfloc at end of boil. Anyone else doing this?

I did it my last batch (although I used Polyclar 730 a PVPP and SIlica gel) It resulted in a very compact trub and thus a particularly clear wort going into the fermenter. The thing that prompted me to try it was i had run out of brewbrite which as far as I can tell is just the same thing a mixture of PVPP and a carageenan. Its really interesting because I have seen other brewers using PVPP near the end of the boil with a carageenen like whirflock, protofloc etc but the directions for using Polyclar are usually after fermentation has been complete. I think the idea with Polyclar VT is that because of its larger size its intended to trap yeast as well. Would be really interested to here of any experiences with it. What prompted you to try a PVPP near the end of the boil if you don't mind me asking.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Here is a research PDF of the promising positive effects of PVPP and Gallotannins in the kettle should anyone feel so inclined.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...oiling_by_addition_of_gallotannins_andor_PVPP

 

[aeviaanah]

I did it my last batch (although I used Polyclar 730 a PVPP and SIlica gel) It resulted in a very compact trub and thus a particularly clear wort going into the fermenter. The thing that prompted me to try it was i had run out of brewbrite which as far as I can tell is just the same thing a mixture of PVPP and a carageenan. Its really interesting because I have seen other brewers using PVPP near the end of the boil with a carageenen like whirflock, protofloc etc but the directions for using Polyclar are usually after fermentation has been complete. I think the idea with Polyclar VT is that because of its larger size its intended to trap yeast as well. Would be really interested to here of any experiences with it. What prompted you to try a PVPP near the end of the boil if you don't mind me asking.

The link provided above is what gave the idea to try PVPP near the end of the boil. You posted a few weeks back in another thread.

I am concerned with the claim from the study’s that PVPP strips flavonoids. Tho, Ashland claims it does not strip flavonoids.

“As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active pro- anthocyanidins, i.e. relatively”

What dose PVPP and carageenan are you using? I have whirlfloc on hand

Where do you get the idea larger particle size is intended to drop yeast? The link below suggests it is larger in size to help facilitate the stabilizer dropping

https://atpgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Polyclar-VT.pdf

 

[MSK_Chess]

The link provided above is what gave the idea to try PVPP near the end of the boil. You posted a few weeks back in another thread.

I am concerned with the claim from the study’s that PVPP strips flavonoids. Tho, Ashland claims it does not strip flavonoids.

“As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active pro- anthocyanidins, i.e. relatively”

What dose PVPP and carageenan are you using? I have whirlfloc on hand

Where do you get the idea larger particle size is intended to drop yeast? The link below suggests it is larger in size to help facilitate the stabilizer dropping

https://atpgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Polyclar-VT.pdf

I was using one protofloc tablet and 5g of PVPP per 23L batch at 10 minutes. This according to the pdf may not be optimal. I have yet to work out what is. I read the following on a commercial description for Polyclar VT

A non-soluble clarifier that removes both haze causing polyphenols as well as yeast cells. https://www.morebeer.com/products/polyclar-vt-pvpp-1-oz.html

 

[aeviaanah]

I was using one protofloc tablet and 5g of PVPP per 23L batch at 10 minutes. This according to the pdf may not be optimal. I have yet to work out what is. I read the following on a commercial description for Polyclar VT

A non-soluble clarifier that removes both haze causing polyphenols as well as yeast cells. https://www.morebeer.com/products/polyclar-vt-pvpp-1-oz.html

That’s odd, I can’t find a single reference to this in Ashland’s product descriptions. I’ll go ahead and use it and post my findings!
Hopefully I can qualitatively notice a difference.

I have been getting pretty clear wort (very slight haze, see picture) into the kettle. Samples from kettle clear and coagulate fast. I’m hoping for a more compact trub with faster initial settling. I usually perform a 5min whirlpool with a good 30m rest. This is in a Sanke with a DIY mesh filter shaped like a whoopie cushion.

View attachment 577838

I believe it to be the same as all other PVVP just larger size, rendering it less effective but easier to rack off of. Let’s hope I’m right on this assumption! Are you using this in conjunction with BtB, AA and SMB? I plan on using .75g/gal which is close to your dose. I’ll add 3min remaining in the boil.

I’ve read sources mentioning to rehydrate, is this for fermenter additions? Is it because we add at boil we can skip this step?

 

[MSK_Chess]

yes thats about the same clarity I am finding too with about the same procedure, whirlpool, 20-30 min rest. I cannot get Polyclar VT in the UK, unless I buy 25KG at about £1,500. Yes that was my understanding too, a slightly larger PVPP. It would be brilliant to find out if you notice any difference.

 

[MSK_Chess]

The link provided above is what gave the idea to try PVPP near the end of the boil. You posted a few weeks back in another thread.

I am concerned with the claim from the study’s that PVPP strips flavonoids. Tho, Ashland claims it does not strip flavonoids.

“As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active pro- anthocyanidins, i.e. relatively”

What dose PVPP and carageenan are you using? I have whirlfloc on hand

Where do you get the idea larger particle size is intended to drop yeast? The link below suggests it is larger in size to help facilitate the stabilizer dropping

https://atpgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Polyclar-VT.pdf

Can you be as kind as to confirm my suspicions because to be honest I am not a scientist nor very brainy.

PVPP is used as stabilising agent because of its ability to bind with haze active polyphenols. PVPP has a structure similar to peptidically linked proline chain [11, 12, 15, 26]. Addition of PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols in the finished beers [12]. As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active proanthocyanidins, i.e. relatively 40 % compared to the reference beer, can already be noticed after a short contact time of 3 min during wort boiling. A contact time of 5 min results in a less efficient removal of the haze-active proanthocyanidins. The effect of PVPP treatment is also expressed by the strong decrease in reducing power of the resulting beers D and E (see Table 3, results obtained by TRAP and DPPH assays). This may result in a diminished flavour stability of these beers. Flavanoids in beer are expected to scavenge active oxygen species and prevent the oxidation of beer components during storage [21]. According to Mikyska et al. [16], both malt and hop polyphenols suppress formation of ageing carbonyls during the brewing process and upon beer storage. In particular polyphenols such as catechin and procyanidin B-3 (both flavanoids) act as powerful antioxidants, thereby protecting other components towards oxidation [16, 30,31]. Finally, levels of sensitive proteins also seem to be affected in the finished beers by the treatment with PVPP at the end of wort boiling.

So what does this mean,? that for two specific beers D and E in the trial the reduction in polyphenols/flavanoids was so pronounced that it may actually be detrimental to flavour stability for the reasons cited?

 

[MSK_Chess]

I must admit that I cannot recall having tried Gallotannins in the kettle ( I think i did once), mash and sparge always. I really should keep some notes. From what I can discern,

1. Kettle pH at the end of boil should be about 5.0.to 5.2, this is optimal for precipitation of proteins. ( I read that a slightly higher pH is better for hop utilization pH 5.6, so perhaps having a slightly higher mash at the beginning of the boil and reduce it near the end if needed is the way to go)
2. According to the pdf Mash should be about 5.2 @63C also for enhanced freshness (which is kind of weird because we are outside the optimal range for alpha amylase (5.3 to 5.5) in both pH and temperature)
3. 5g/hL of Gallotannins is better than 10g/hL (about 1g per 20litrs (5 gallon batch))
4. A short time with PVPP (3 mins) is more effective that a longer time. Why? I cannot say.

Its really interesting for it would be really awesome if we saw real benefits of upstream care in respect to 'chill proofing' and improving colloidal stability for once that beer goes to serving keg under spunge we don't really want to be messing about with it.

 

[aeviaanah]

I must admit that I cannot recall having tried Gallotannins in the kettle ( I think i did once), mash and sparge always. I really should keep some notes. From what I can discern,

1. Kettle pH at the end of boil should be about 5.0.to 5.2, this is optimal for precipitation of proteins. ( I read that a slightly higher pH is better for hop utilization pH 5.6, so perhaps having a slightly higher mash at the beginning of the boil and reduce it near the end if needed is the way to go)
2. According to the pdf Mash should be about 5.2 @63C also for enhanced freshness (which is kind of weird because we are outside the optimal range for alpha amylase (5.3 to 5.5) in both pH and temperature)
3. 5g/hL of Gallotannins is better than 10g/hL (about 1g per 20litrs (5 gallon batch))
4. A short time with PVPP (3 mins) is more effective that a longer time. Why? I cannot say.

Its really interesting for it would be really awesome if we saw real benefits of upstream care in respect to 'chill proofing' and improving colloidal stability for once that beer goes to serving keg under spunge we don't really want to be messing about with it.

1. I observe a natural decrease in pH throughout the course of the boil. This is typically 5.4 in beginning to 5.2 at the end. Interesting you point out hop utilization, i guess its a decision of whats most important?

2. I usually target 5.4 ph as its the middle ground from a few different sources. This batch I will target 5.2 pH. As you mention its a bit low but still within range IMO. Martin sources in BruNwater that a mash pH of 5.2 may assist in achieving tart or crisp beers. Crisp sounds good for this particular pale ale. I step mash and ensure focus on beta enzymes, do you happen to know ideal pH for these?

3. I use .15g per gal gallotannins. This converts to .75g/5gal batch. Maybe ill raise this up a bit since it seems im on the lower side?

4. Not sure why a 3min contact is superior to 5min. I feel more data points are needed to say for certain.

Can you be as kind as to confirm my suspicions because to be honest I am not a scientist nor very brainy.

PVPP is used as stabilising agent because of its ability to bind with haze active polyphenols. PVPP has a structure similar to peptidically linked proline chain [11, 12, 15, 26]. Addition of PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols in the finished beers [12]. As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active proanthocyanidins, i.e. relatively 40 % compared to the reference beer, can already be noticed after a short contact time of 3 min during wort boiling. A contact time of 5 min results in a less efficient removal of the haze-active proanthocyanidins. The effect of PVPP treatment is also expressed by the strong decrease in reducing power of the resulting beers D and E (see Table 3, results obtained by TRAP and DPPH assays). This may result in a diminished flavour stability of these beers. Flavanoids in beer are expected to scavenge active oxygen species and prevent the oxidation of beer components during storage [21]. According to Mikyska et al. [16], both malt and hop polyphenols suppress formation of ageing carbonyls during the brewing process and upon beer storage. In particular polyphenols such as catechin and procyanidin B-3 (both flavanoids) act as powerful antioxidants, thereby protecting other components towards oxidation [16, 30,31]. Finally, levels of sensitive proteins also seem to be affected in the finished beers by the treatment with PVPP at the end of wort boiling.

So what does this mean,? that for two specific beers D and E in the trial the reduction in polyphenols/flavanoids was so pronounced that it may actually be detrimental to flavour stability for the reasons cited?

I understand this as the addition of PVVP is beneficial in areas regarding the decrease of polyphenols and proanthocyanidins, and as a result MAY BE detrimental in others areas with an observed decrease of flavanoids. I have read people noticing the reduction of flavor, they attribute the flavor as the green vegetable flavor however i take caution as this is anecdotal.

 

[MSK_Chess]

1. I observe a natural decrease in pH throughout the course of the boil. This is typically 5.4 in beginning to 5.2 at the end. Interesting you point out hop utilization, i guess its a decision of whats most important?

2. I usually target 5.4 ph as its the middle ground from a few different sources. This batch I will target 5.2 pH. As you mention its a bit low but still within range IMO. Martin sources in BruNwater that a mash pH of 5.2 may assist in achieving tart or crisp beers. Crisp sounds good for this particular pale ale. I step mash and ensure focus on beta enzymes, do you happen to know ideal pH for these?

3. I use .15g per gal gallotannins. This converts to .75g/5gal batch. Maybe ill raise this up a bit since it seems im on the lower side?

4. Not sure why a 3min contact is superior to 5min. I feel more data points are needed to say for certain.



I understand this as the addition of PVVP is beneficial in areas regarding the decrease of polyphenols and proanthocyanidins, and as a result MAY BE detrimental in others areas with an observed decrease of flavanoids. I have read people noticing the reduction of flavor, they attribute the flavor as the green vegetable flavor however i take caution as this is anecdotal.

Please would be really interested to know how it turns out for you.

 

[aeviaanah]

Can you be as kind as to confirm my suspicions because to be honest I am not a scientist nor very brainy.

PVPP is used as stabilising agent because of its ability to bind with haze active polyphenols. PVPP has a structure similar to peptidically linked proline chain [11, 12, 15, 26]. Addition of PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols in the finished beers [12]. As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active proanthocyanidins, i.e. relatively 40 % compared to the reference beer, can already be noticed after a short contact time of 3 min during wort boiling. A contact time of 5 min results in a less efficient removal of the haze-active proanthocyanidins. The effect of PVPP treatment is also expressed by the strong decrease in reducing power of the resulting beers D and E (see Table 3, results obtained by TRAP and DPPH assays). This may result in a diminished flavour stability of these beers. Flavanoids in beer are expected to scavenge active oxygen species and prevent the oxidation of beer components during storage [21]. According to Mikyska et al. [16], both malt and hop polyphenols suppress formation of ageing carbonyls during the brewing process and upon beer storage. In particular polyphenols such as catechin and procyanidin B-3 (both flavanoids) act as powerful antioxidants, thereby protecting other components towards oxidation [16, 30,31]. Finally, levels of sensitive proteins also seem to be affected in the finished beers by the treatment with PVPP at the end of wort boiling.

So what does this mean,? that for two specific beers D and E in the trial the reduction in polyphenols/flavanoids was so pronounced that it may actually be detrimental to flavour stability for the reasons cited?

Did you see this in the conclusion?

"The sensory evaluation of the stabilised beers has shown that PVPP treatment does not deteriorate the flavour stability, which is in contrast with the results on the analytical evaluation of the reducing capacity."

My take on this is that the analytical data showed a decrease in measured flavanoids but it was not noticed in the sensory test. How do you take the excerpt below taken from 3.3 Sensory evaluation of beers

"After 5 days of storage at 40 °C, beers brewed with gallotannins
were rated with a lower ageing score than other beers; both the
reference beer A and the beers stabilised with PVPP (D and E).
After 10 and 15 days at 40 °C, beers were evaluated negatively by
the tasting panel, both the reference beer and the stabilised beers.
Ageing scores varied from 4 (slightly staled) to 6 (strongly staled).
Nevertheless, regardless of the aging period, the gallotannin beers
always received the lowest overall ageing score, which could be
related to their higher reducing power. Positive effects of gallotannins
on beer fl avour stability have been reported previously [1, 2, 22].
The addition of PVPP in the upstream process has no negative
effect on the beer taste of fresh beer. Despite of the lower reducing
capacity of the beers treated with PVPP, in correlation to their
reference, the ageing scores were similar as the reference beer."

 

[MSK_Chess]

My goodness I don't know how I could have missed that. It appears that there is no negative effect despite the dramatic decrease in flavinoids by the use of PVPP and ageing was similar to those treated without it which is interesting because our understanding is that flaviniods are excellent at slowing down stalling because of their reducing capacity. Gallotannins scored awesomely in aging tests which could be because they are awesome at reducing.

 

[aeviaanah]

My goodness I don't know how I could have missed that. It appears that there is no negative effect despite the dramatic decrease in flavinoids by the use of PVPP and ageing was similar to those treated without it which is interesting because our understanding is that flaviniods are excellent at slowing down stalling because of their reducing capacity. Gallotannins scored awesomely in aging tests which could be because they are awesome at reducing.

Here are the results of 2 tabs whirlfloc (boil, 10m), .2g/gal btb (hlt) and .375g/gal pvvp (boil, 3min).

This was 6oz citra whirlpool with another 2oz in boil.

The trub was very compact, this may be a result of the amount of hops against the screen I use to filter.

 

[SanPancho]

So whats the consensus here on the polyclar in terms of dosage and timing?

 

[aeviaanah]

My goodness I don't know how I could have missed that. It appears that there is no negative effect despite the dramatic decrease in flavinoids by the use of PVPP and ageing was similar to those treated without it which is interesting because our understanding is that flaviniods are excellent at slowing down stalling because of their reducing capacity. Gallotannins scored awesomely in aging tests which could be because they are awesome at reducing.

@MSK_Chess, are you still messing with PVPP?

 

[MSK_Chess]

@MSK_Chess, are you still messing with PVPP?

Hi sorry haven't been brewing lately but plan to begin again soon. I am not super religious when it comes to LODO and I don't care about the Reinheitsgebot, blasphemy I know but call me a heretic, I've been called worse! I do take all the precautions that I can to reduce oxygen ingress though. Pre boiling water, circulating under the surface to reduce turbulence etc I do use mineral additions too like Calcium etc I have on occasion also used a culture of Lacto but for expediency sake mostly use acid malt.

My own technique is to use Brewtan B and Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) as anti oxidants upstream i.e in the mash, I don't like sodium metabisulphite. I was however laterally using Polyclar Brewbrite which is a carrageenan and PVPP with excellent results. again this is upstream just before the end of the boil as you would whirflock etc. I did closed transfers from fermenting vessel to keg (pre primed with CO2 from the fermentation process and just lagered afterwards) Because we have taken care of oxygen ingress upstream and anything which can bind with oxygen to polymerise and cause haze you get a crystal clear beer downstream without the need for introducing fining or filtration. An Oktoberfest lager and a European style lager I brew'd with pretty decent results.

https://www.ashland.com/industries/food-and-beverage/beer-and-wine/polyclar-brewbrite-stabilizer

 

[Robert65]

I use BrewTan B at 7 minutes to end of boil, Whirlfloc T at 5 minutes, and PVPP at 3 minutes. Each has its own ideal timing, so it is really advantageous to dose them separately rather than in a combined product like Brewbrite. Gallotannin not only works synergistically with PVPP as per the Withouck, et al. paper referenced above, it also augments the effectiveness of carrageenan, so the three part treatment is highly effective IME. Clarity of the beer is as good as with filtration, which, like fining, I've never found a way to do without introducing oxygen, and there is no risk of stripping desirable elements as with fining or filtration. (I use BrewTan B, SMB and ascorbic acid in the mash, having deoxygenated the liquor by yeast scavenging, and take additional measures to prevent oxygen ingress through the process. I'm not religious either, just as thorough as I can be.)

 

[MSK_Chess]

I would also like to say that I simplified my process by doing a full volume no sparge mash routine simply pulling the stainless steel basket as one does in something like a Grainfather/Robobrew type set up. It took one or two brews to hit the numbers but nothing catastrophic. Whether it helps with oxygen ingress I cannot say but I remember reading something that Die Beery had written on the Low oxygen website where he did some experiments and observed that it was best practice.