Post boil oxygen levels

[applescrap]

Without getting into every lodo aspect or whether it would be worth it or not. I am curious about post boil oxygenation. Apologies if this question has been answered already many times. I'm curious what the exact oxygen levels are of a brew that was made under normal Brewing procedures but fermentation on was treated in low-oxygen methods. It would be nice to compare with oxygen levels that were maintained on both sides but I'm curious with only post fermentation for now. I am aware that this will not preserve the grain flavor sought after in these processes but I figure it can't hurt and it seems like something that I could do as at least a start.

I need somewhere to start and I think this side could be easiest for now. I just saw a great article in byo, I think it was called, advance dry hopping techniques. The author interviewed vinnie at rr, the alchemist brewer, and a bunch of other solid brewers and they all mentioned post fermentation oxygen. I was already one foot over the fence so this article solidified the importance of cold side oxygen. Thanks

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I would believe after just a few minutes of boiling, your DO levels would be sub .5ppm.

 

[MaxStout]

The solubility of O2 in water is basically nil at boiling temps.

 

[leesmith]

...Apologies if this question has been answered already many times. I'm curious what the exact oxygen levels are of a brew that was made under normal Brewing procedures but fermentation on was treated in low-oxygen methods. It would be nice to compare with oxygen levels that were maintained on both sides but I'm curious with only post fermentation for now....

What you are asking is:

What is the finished o2 level of a beer brewed non-LODO on the hot side but treated LODO on the cold side?

Of course this opens up questions of how various cold side processes can reduce or increase o2?

From what I have read, if you follow the cold side process recommendations of the LODO guys, your finished homebrew can be even lower then recognized commercial standards/levels.

For reference: http://www.********************/bre...rging-transferring-stabilizing-finished-beer/

 

[Big Monk]

Without getting into every lodo aspect or whether it would be worth it or not. I am curious about post boil oxygenation. Apologies if this question has been answered already many times. I'm curious what the exact oxygen levels are of a brew that was made under normal Brewing procedures but fermentation on was treated in low-oxygen methods. It would be nice to compare with oxygen levels that were maintained on both sides but I'm curious with only post fermentation for now. I am aware that this will not preserve the grain flavor sought after in these processes but I figure it can't hurt and it seems like something that I could do as at least a start.

I need somewhere to start and I think this side could be easiest for now. I just saw a great article in byo, I think it was called, advance dry hopping techniques. The author interviewed vinnie at rr, the alchemist brewer, and a bunch of other solid brewers and they all mentioned post fermentation oxygen. I was already one foot over the fence so this article solidified the importance of cold side oxygen. Thanks

While it doesn’t capture the whole picture of what we recommend, the DO levels in wort post boil will be near zero.

 

[Schlenkerla]

While it doesn’t capture the whole picture of what we recommend, the DO levels in wort post boil will be near zero.

It's good to keep it covered during the chilling process. As the temp drops the solubility goes up for dissolved oxygen. I use float balls in the HLT, MLT, and BK. The BK if covered will slow the egress of DO during cooling.

Using the balls reduces the heat stress during the boil. I can keep the boil simmering at the #3 of 10 setting on my stove top. Anything above 7 makes the boil quite violent and balls get tossed around too much. It also heats faster with the balls.

Aside from DO protection it's an insulator. Keeps heat in all applications. Only lose 1F in 60 minutes with a half full mash tun. I could never do that before without them. I was guaranteed having to do step infusions or contemplate using my smaller mash tun.

These are 20mm balls. I bought a 1000 for $75 to act as a mash cap in my igloo mash tun. They work great because you can break the surface with a mash paddle or a recirculation line. Material is polypropylene. Heat safe to 230F. Pharma grade plastic. I can use 1000 split up into all three brewing vessels. HLT, MLT, BK.

https://eccllc.us/products/

https://eccllc.us/features/

 

[mongoose33]

I believe @applescrap was referring to post-fermentation.

Oxygen prior to the boil? Not helpful. During the boil? Irrelevant, the oxygen is boiled off. Post boil? You need to oxygenate the wort for yeast health and reproduction, it's the only time you want oxygen involved.

Post fermentation? Oxygen bad. Oxidation is the enemy, and eliminating oxygen as much as possible is the key.

That's why you see people focusing on things like spunding, oxygen-free transfers, purging kegs before racking beer into them, and the like. It even extends to concerns about the purity of CO2 used to force-carbonate the beer, and even to ensuring your beer lines in a keezer/kegerator are oxygen-impermeable.

Early on in my brewing career I realized that oxygen, with the exception of oxygenating the wort when pitching yeast, is bad. Oxidation is bad. So I'm on a mission to reduce it as much as possible.

If you accept that, then the name of the game is figuring out ways to reduce your beer's exposure to oxygen. I noted a few of those above. Consider it a journey, master a technique, then move on to the next one.

 

[applescrap]

I think I want to focus on post boil and beyond only for now. I was curious what a reasonable measurement of oxygen would be if reasonable efforts were made on cold side only. I mean got to take a step forward somewhere. Is fermenting in a corny the simplest way to start?

 

[Big Monk]

I think I want to focus on post boil and beyond only for now. I was curious what a reasonable measurement of oxygen would be if reasonable efforts were made on cold side only. I mean got to take a step forward somewhere. Is fermenting in a corny the simplest way to start?

I think you need to identify what you mean.

If by post-boil you mean going into the fermenter, and you haven’t done any of the hot side stuff, then it doesn’t matter what your oxygen levels are. Fermentation will knock it down to zero.

If you mean post-active fermentation, then any Oxygen is bad news but more specifically you’d want to probably be in the low ppb range if you really care about getting serious about cold-side Oxygen exclusion.

 

[mongoose33]

I think you need to identify what you mean.

If by post-boil you mean going into the fermenter, and you haven’t done any of the hot side stuff, then it doesn’t matter what your oxygen levels are. Fermentation will knock it down to zero.

If you mean post-active fermentation, then any Oxygen is bad news but more specifically you’d want to probably be in the low ppb range if you really care about getting serious about cold-side Oxygen exclusion.

I'm not inclined to disagree with you much on low-oxygen stuff, but I think there is value in controlling oxidation after fermentation even if you haven't done anything on the hot side.

I've had heavily-oxidized beers that weren't the result of cold-side oxidation. I've had, and brewed, excellent beers before I started doing LODO stuff, and the reduction in oxidation on the cold side was evident in their improved quality.

Yeah, it doesn't overcome any oxidation on the hot side, but concern about oxidation on the cold side can prevent further degradation.

It's worth doing; not only that, but it's the easiest place to start the journey.

My 2 cents.

 

[applescrap]

Thats exactly what I am thinking Mongoose. Its not going to hurt my beers any. Clearly I have no idea when and where oxygen enters the game. Can you help me get started fairly easily?

 

[Big Monk]

I'm not inclined to disagree with you much on low-oxygen stuff, but I think there is value in controlling oxidation after fermentation even if you haven't done anything on the hot side.

I've had heavily-oxidized beers that weren't the result of cold-side oxidation. I've had, and brewed, excellent beers before I started doing LODO stuff, and the reduction in oxidation on the cold side was evident in their improved quality.

Yeah, it doesn't overcome any oxidation on the hot side, but concern about oxidation on the cold side can prevent further degradation.

It's worth doing; not only that, but it's the easiest place to start the journey.

My 2 cents.

That’s not what I meant. I meant that if he’s talking about levels post-boil but pre-fermentation, then it doesn’t matter. Fermentation will knock it down to zero.

I am in 100% agreement that if you are talking about levels post-active fermentation then it all matters.

Although anybody can take care to avoid excessive aeration on the hot side without doing LOB.

 

[Big Monk]

Thats exactly what I am thinking Mongoose. Its not going to hurt my beers any. Clearly I have no idea when and where oxygen enters the game. Can you help me get started fairly easily?

I always try and break it down like this:

1.) Hot-side Oxygen Ingress:
a.) Saturated Strike Water;
b.) Dough-In;
c.) Vigorous splashing/Stirring;
d.) Atmoshperic Intrusion

2.) Cold-Side Oxygen Ingress:
a.) Fermenter Seal;
b.) Non-Closed Transfers;
c.) Incomplete Purging of Recieving Vessels;
d.) Adding ingredients post fermentation
e.) Force Carbing

There are others but those are the heavy hitters.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks for the breakdown Rpi. Could you help me with part 2. I am curious about options, equipment.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks for the breakdown Rpi. Could you help me with part 2. I am curious about options, equipment.

Describe your current process and equipment.

 

[Sadu]

Applescrap, removal of oxygen from the cold side is absolutely where you should start. You can progress on from there or not if you want.

Start by telling us what your current cold side process looks like. What sort of fermentors you have, whether you use kegs or bottles as the advice will be very different.

If you are kegging then fermenting under pressure and spunding, followed by a closed transfer into the keg is a very good way to keep o2 intake low. Kegs make very good pressure fermentors, aside from the awkward sizes.

 

[Bobby_M]

Any fermenter that holds a reasonable seal and can handle up to 1psi will serve the purpose.

Carboys and Fermonsters work. Here's a no oxygen transfer setup:

I also have a premium version that has a ball lock gas post on it.

Any time you put something into the fermenter or take beer out, CO2 should be making up the missing volume.

 

[applescrap]

Applescrap, removal of oxygen from the cold side is absolutely where you should start. You can progress on from there or not if you want.

Start by telling us what your current cold side process looks like. What sort of fermentors you have, whether you use kegs or bottles as the advice will be very different.

If you are kegging then fermenting under pressure and spunding, followed by a closed transfer into the keg is a very good way to keep o2 intake low. Kegs make very good pressure fermentors, aside from the awkward sizes.

Thanks Sadu, I have very little. Two fermentation plastic buckets, and two pin lock cornies. I am aware of and have no problem with buying whatever it takes. I wish I knew more about spund vs other options. The gas from the ferment seems icky, idk maybe its just me. Is there other options. I dont really have any idea how it works. Appreciate the help

 

[applescrap]

Any fermenter that holds a reasonable seal and can handle up to 1psi will serve the purpose.

Carboys and Fermonsters work. Here's a no oxygen transfer setup:

I also have a premium version that has a ball lock gas post on it.

Any time you put something into the fermenter or take beer out, CO2 should be making up the missing volume.

Thanks Bobby. That fermonster seems perfect. So just ferment and push to keg and force carbonate?