SO4 or DV10?

[Chalkyt]

I am about to juice a mixed batch of apples. Mostly "roadside unknown variety" which I would describe as either tart eating or sweet cooking apples. The refractometer SG shows 1.056 (13.8 Brix) and acid test strip Ph is about 3.0. The other 25% or so apples will be whatever I can cobble together (Pippins, red delicious, and some unknown eating apples). My usual abundance of Pippins and Pomme de Neige fell victim to deer and cockatoos.

The problem this year is that it has been very hot and dry and birds have attacked any fruit as soon as it is anywhere near ripe, so although I would rather leave apples on the trees until April or May (mid to late Fall), of necessity Cider making has to start now.

I have a couple of trial batches that have been under way for a few weeks but it is too early to draw any conclusions. The same juice is used in each batch. One has SO4 and the other has DV10. The idea as outlined in an earlier post, is to determine (if possible) which yeast leaves the most "appleness" or sweetness. I understand that both of these yeasts can finish at around 1.004 or so which should leave some unfermented sugar. Also I read somewhere that adding a few pears is worthwhile as they contain some unfermentable sugars.

Past ciders have been a bit tart, which I don't mind, but SWMBO likes her drinks a bit sweeter. This is likely to be the only decent size batch this year... so the dilemma is "what yeast" to get the best result? I would prefer to avoid "de-tarting" with something like Xylitol if possible, and do want to bottle carb so pasteurisation isn't an option. We don't easily have access to a great range of yeasts here in Oz. I can get EC1118, Nottingham, SO4, DV10 and I have found a source of WL775 although this involves sending it by mail in a cold pack and hoping that it survives.

Any advice regarding experience with these yeasts or any other comments will be welcome as I only get one go at it with my own apples this year.

 

[Maylar]

I've not used DV10, so I can't comment on that. I've been using S-04 for a few years now, and unlike others here I've never had it finish above 1.000. I'm guessing that it has to do with temperature, as I'm at the mercy of Mother Nature in that regard. If you want it to retain some sugar, make an effort to keep the temp close to 60°F. Also be sure to add yeast nutrient, as S-04 will make sulfur without it.

pH at 3.0 is really low. If your juice is high acid it'd be a perfect candidate for 71B-1122.

Can you measure acidity (TA)?

 

[MarkKF]

I've not used DV10, so I can't comment on that. I've been using S-04 for a few years now, and unlike others here I've never had it finish above 1.000. I'm guessing that it has to do with temperature, as I'm at the mercy of Mother Nature in that regard. If you want it to retain some sugar, make an effort to keep the temp close to 60°F. Also be sure to add yeast nutrient, as S-04 will make sulfur without it.

I ferment in my basement and it’s usually 55-65 and mine stops at 1.004 with nutrients but no added sugar.

Does that compare to yours? Lately I’m using 71b-1122. It’s a lot cheaper, too!

 

[bernardsmith]

DV10 is spec'ed to produce glycerols which means that it adds mouthfeel. Don't know that ciders have a thinness that requires more viscosity.

 

[bmd2k1]

S04 is currently my fav. I typically get it to stop in the 1.01-1.012 range...via 48hr cold crash after 7days of primary ferment. I don't add any nutrients....only 100% Sams AJ & FAJC...and have never had any sulphur issues. Cider is crystal clear...flavorful & aromatic. I ferment in my basement 64-68 F.

Lees/yeast cake is very firm after cold crashing...which makes racking a breeze.

My 2 cents [emoji111]

Cheers & good luck!

 

[Maylar]

I ferment in my basement and it’s usually 55-65 and mine stops at 1.004 with nutrients but no added sugar.

Does that compare to yours? Lately I’m using 71b-1122. It’s a lot cheaper, too!

Yeah, basement for me too. Same temp range as you. This year's batch finished at 1.000. Last year at 62F it stopped at 1.004 but when I moved it upstairs (68F) for racking it started fermenting again and finished at 0.996. Go figure.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the prompt replies and advice. Just spent part of the day chopping and crushing the apples.

The end result from the first pressing is 5 litres of quite cloudy, reasonably sweet juice. With the apples now blended together, the SG is 1.055 as measured with the refractometer (Brix 13.3).

PH indicator strip suggests around 3.5-4.0 but can't say more accurately than that (the strips cover the range 0-14 and the colour is a bit below 4.0). The 3.0 that I measured yesterday was from one apple so it looks as though including "eating " apples in the mix has improved this quite a bit.

TA is 6g/L. So, is it worthwhile adding 5g of Malic Acid and see if the PH drops more before deciding how much "campden" to add?

The plan is to give it a day with pectinase to get rid of the bulk of the solids then go with SO4 and nutrient. The coolstore is holding around 60-64 degrees and will get colder once we get further into Fall. I am quite happy to let it sit until the primary drop to 1.020 then rack to secondary for a couple of months. Hopefully the SO4 will finish at something like 1.004 and keep the "appleness".

I have enough juice to freeze and extract AJC to add later for bottle carbonation and hopefully flavour.

This is the first time I have made cider "scientifically" (in the past it has just been press juice, add yeast, and see what happens). I am now full of information from this forum and CJ's book, so wish me luck lest I dazzle myself with science!

 

[bmd2k1]

Cheers & Best of Luck! [emoji111]

 

[bernardsmith]

You need to be careful not to confuse TA with pH. TA is a measure of the amount of acids in solution. pH measures the strength , not the volume. You can have a lot of weak acids; a lot of strong acids; a little weak acid or a lot of strong acid. TA is more relevant to how your cider tastes... pH is more relevant for stability and how easily or not, yeast can transport sugars through cell membranes. In addition, too high a pH may encourage bacterial infections, while too low a pH may result in a stalled fermentation. This implies - and I will be explicit, yeast does not need a low pH to do its work but you may need more SO2 (K-meta) to prevent long term oxidation if the pH is at bottling - relatively speaking, too high. But pH means next to nothing with regard to taste. A TA of about 6.0g/l is, IMO, more or less right on target for a white wine.

 

[Maylar]

.6 g/l is acidic enough. Most of my fresh pressed orchard juices are .5 - .6 with pH of 3.4-3.5

 

[Chalkyt]

Thank you for those explanations. My chemistry basically finished at High School so I was struggling to get my head around the relationship between pH and TA. I hadn't even heard of TA until Santa brought me Jolicoeur, and he makes the point that they aren't substitutes for each other, but I didn't get it until now.

Although I have attempted to make cider from my apples a few times, but up until last year (when I stumbled across HBT) the results haven't been all that good. The 2017 batch is great, especially after maturing since it was bottled in June. you learn all sorts of good things here.

It looks as though the numbers for this batch are just about right so I won't worry about Malic Acid until bottling time (if at all). Same with the SO2... one "tablet" seems to be common practice as a precaution, but maybe not necessary.

The earlier test batches that I mentioned (using SO4 and DV10) have behaved quite differently even though the both are using the same juice blend. The SO4 had a quick turbulent primary fermentation and cleared very quickly. In secondary it is "blooping along" quite sedately with currently one bloop every four or five minutes. The DV10 took a while to take off and then did so with lots of foam and enthusiasm. It is still quite cloudy but seems to be more active in secondary with a bloop every couple of minutes and big bubbles in the neck of the carboy. I haven't measures the SG of either as I plan to leave them until at least May before looking at bottling.

I have decided to go with the SO4 as all of the feedback suggests that this produces really good results.

 

[ten80]

Just watch for sulfurous odors with S-04. If it gets farty while actively fermenting, add a little (2-3g per 5 gallons) organic nitrogen (Fermaid-O) or similar. Don't let it sit on the lees if it's done fermenting and still farty-smelling. DV-10 is supposedly a very low sulfur-producing yeast with low nutritional requirements, similar to EC1118, but with slightly greater ester production.