Spunding question

[pvpeacock]

I was spunding a keg with 1 cup of priming sugar and 1 oz. of dry hops. The next day, I saw a little bit of foam on the beer out post and could see that some liquid had run down the side of the keg. I wiped the foam off of the post and saw that the poppet had a very small leak. I tried pushing down on the poppet with my finger to get it to reseal, but that did not work. So, like an idiot, I took a screwdriver and tried to push the poppet down a little more so it would reseal. Instead, I dislodged the poppet so it was it was no longer lined up with the hole and the geyser started immediately. I was sprayed, by garage ceiling was sprayed; there was beer flying everywhere. I managed to get my hand over the post and dragged the keg out onto my drive way.

Once there, I tried releasing pressure with the PRV, but nothing came out. Then I removed the spunding valve and used the screwdriver to try and release pressure from the gas out post. What I got was more beer spaying everywhere. Eventually, I loosened the beer out post enough to re-center the poppet and stop the floor of beer. By that time, I was soaked, my truck was sprayed and the garage was a mess.

I ultimately tapped and drank the keg which was a really good pale ale. Yesterday, I cleaned the keg. There was hop debris stuck in the PRV and all over the underside of the lid and keg lip. I'm convinced that the only reason the keg even poured was that I had a floating dip tube in it and cold crashed it for a number of days before I actually tapped it. What a mess. I renamed the beer "Geyser Pale Ale."

 

[whovous]

Well, things got worse when I got home. I tried pulling the PRV to release pressure, but eventually I got foam out of it. I gave it a few minutes and pulled the PRV again, and the same thing happened. So I foolishly unscrewed the gas post a little at a time, letting out a little pressure with each turn, so that I could put the blowoff tube on.

Once the gas post was off of the last thread, beer started shooting at my chest and face at very high speeds. I quickly put the gas post back on and tightened it up, then spent a couple minutes cleaning up the mess. When I was on my way out of the garage, I saw the gas dip tube on the ground. Oops!

So I relieved pressure a little at a time until I was comfortable taking the post off again, to put the dip tube in. This time I had a few paper towels over the gas post to help with any flying beer. Well, the paper towels helped a little - but I still got sprayed. I got the gas dip tube in, but it wasn't pretty.

See my posts in this thread from Sept 19. I had the same problem and tried to have an even more disastrous result. My idea was to remove the lid and pour off some beer. Either the lid was stuck or the pressure was too great (even after I released same repeatedly), but I was unable to get the lid off. Someone suggested I would have "repainted" the whole kitchen if I had succeeded! I was lucky that I was not smart enough to try your idea of unscrewing the poppet.

But your problem and mine was that we put too much beer in the keg in the first place. The foam from fermentation got high enough to reach the gas tube, and the pressure of fermentation meant the gunk found its way out the spunding valve.

The solution is to drain the keg until the foam no longer reaches the dip tube. It hurts to let go of the beer that way, but it works.

 

[whovous]

I was spunding a keg with 1 cup of priming sugar and 1 oz. of dry hops. The next day, I saw a little bit of foam on the beer out post and could see that some liquid had run down the side of the keg. I wiped the foam off of the post and saw that the poppet had a very small leak. I tried pushing down on the poppet with my finger to get it to reseal, but that did not work. So, like an idiot, I took a screwdriver and tried to push the poppet down a little more so it would reseal. Instead, I dislodged the poppet so it was it was no longer lined up with the hole and the geyser started immediately. I was sprayed, by garage ceiling was sprayed; there was beer flying everywhere. I managed to get my hand over the post and dragged the keg out onto my drive way.

Once there, I tried releasing pressure with the PRV, but nothing came out. Then I removed the spunding valve and used the screwdriver to try and release pressure from the gas out post. What I got was more beer spaying everywhere. Eventually, I loosened the beer out post enough to re-center the poppet and stop the floor of beer. By that time, I was soaked, my truck was sprayed and the garage was a mess.

I ultimately tapped and drank the keg which was a really good pale ale. Yesterday, I cleaned the keg. There was hop debris stuck in the PRV and all over the underside of the lid and keg lip. I'm convinced that the only reason the keg even poured was that I had a floating dip tube in it and cold crashed it for a number of days before I actually tapped it. What a mess. I renamed the beer "Geyser Pale Ale."

How much beer did you lose that way?

 

[Carolina_Matt]

See my posts in this thread from Sept 19. I had the same problem and tried to have an even more disastrous result. My idea was to remove the lid and pour off some beer. Either the lid was stuck or the pressure was too great (even after I released same repeatedly), but I was unable to get the lid off. Someone suggested I would have "repainted" the whole kitchen if I had succeeded! I was lucky that I was not smart enough to try your idea of unscrewing the poppet.

But your problem and mine was that we put too much beer in the keg in the first place. The foam from fermentation got high enough to reach the gas tube, and the pressure of fermentation meant the gunk found its way out the spunding valve.

The solution is to drain the keg until the foam no longer reaches the dip tube. It hurts to let go of the beer that way, but it works.

I also tried removing the lid, but it wouldn't budge. I'm glad it didn't move! I figured it would release all of the pressure at once, and didn't consider that it might make 10x the mess that I already made. Live and learn!

I realized yesterday morning that I forgot to put Fermcap in this keg, so that likely led to part of the problem. I actually had more headspace than I thought I'd have, and it's not a high gravity beer (it's Jamil's Blonde Ale recipe with less than 10 lbs of grain for the 4.5 gallon batch), but I guess Fermcap makes that much of a difference. I don't have any foaming in my Fat Tire clone that's fermenting right next to it.

It should be right at the tail end of fermentation at this point. I'll check it when I get home tonight, but hopefully the foam is on its way down by now. Next time I'll use Fermcap, and I'll keep the blowoff tube on for an extra day before putting on the spunding valve.

On a side note, how do you take gravity samples with this process? Since the beer is carbonated, doesn't that mess with the reading?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I also tried removing the lid, but it wouldn't budge. I'm glad it didn't move! I figured it would release all of the pressure at once, and didn't consider that it might make 10x the mess that I already made. Live and learn!

I realized yesterday morning that I forgot to put Fermcap in this keg, so that likely led to part of the problem. I actually had more headspace than I thought I'd have, and it's not a high gravity beer (it's Jamil's Blonde Ale recipe with less than 10 lbs of grain for the 4.5 gallon batch), but I guess Fermcap makes that much of a difference. I don't have any foaming in my Fat Tire clone that's fermenting right next to it.

It should be right at the tail end of fermentation at this point. I'll check it when I get home tonight, but hopefully the foam is on its way down by now. Next time I'll use Fermcap, and I'll keep the blowoff tube on for an extra day before putting on the spunding valve.

On a side note, how do you take gravity samples with this process? Since the beer is carbonated, doesn't that mess with the reading?

Do a Fast Ferment Test. Pull a sample at high Krausen. Roughly a pint. When I do it a put it in a 1 pint glass milk bottle. A mason jar would work too. You can check it using a refractometer or hydrometer. Just don't toss the sample you can check it over and over.

 

[pvpeacock]

How much beer did you lose that way?

my guess was that I lost about a quarter of the keg based on how much it weighed after the disaster. I didn't actually weigh it, but just judged from my own experience lifting full kegs into the keezer.

 

[Brooothru]

Try to pull a sample before kegging and save that for repeated gravity checks. I typically will use a refractometer or my hydrometer. If I remember to do so it helps to calibrate my refractometer with the hydrometer at the OG check.

You could also do a fast ferment check with a 1 liter sample of wort taken when you fill your fermenter after the boil. Pitch any of you left over yeast when you pitch the main batch, put it on a stir plate and 2-3 days later the sample will be at FG. This will be an accurate predictor of what the FG of your fermenting main batch (within 1~2 gravity points) when it's fully fermented.

I do this so that I know at what gravity to put the spunding valve on the fermenting main batch. In practice I usually pitch the yeast from an Erlenmeyer flask, fill the flask with wort, and put it on the stir plate to spin. Five minutes prep time, 2-3 days later take a gravity reading. Done.

Brooo Brother

 

[NateBrew]

A liter is a lot. I usually pull maybe 50mL from my main batch and then either stir plate or just swish it now and then. I let that finish out and see what the finishing Brix reading is in the refractometer, then transfer when the main batch is ~1 Brix above that terminal value. No refractometer calibration needed for that one, it's all a relative measurement. Works just about every time.

I just kegged something last night after 2 days of fermenting (ale, US05 @ 68F) and it was at 23 PSI the next morning and finished that evening.

 

[h22lude]

Few things to remember with using a FFT. Stir plate will cause the FG to end a few points lower then your actual batch. Swirling will cause the FG to end a point or two lower than your actual batch. I just let it sit and swirl it maybe twice a day just to get the yeast back up. You also may not be able to use a FFT with ales. I find my ales are down to spunding time at the same time the FFT ends so it is useless.

 

[Brooothru]

Few things to remember with using a FFT. Stir plate will cause the FG to end a few points lower then your actual batch. Swirling will cause the FG to end a point or two lower than your actual batch. I just let it sit and swirl it maybe twice a day just to get the yeast back up. You also may not be able to use a FFT with ales. I find my ales are down to spunding time at the same time the FFT ends so it is useless.

All correct. That's why I usually start spunding 3~5 points before my FFT estimate of FG rather than the 'normal' 2~3 protocol. You're spot on WRT ales, especially when using a yeast like Nottingham at slightly higher temps.

I'm getting ready to do my first brewing with Kveik at elevated fermenting temperatures. Some people claim to have reached FG within 2 days! All bets are off at that point. But I usually prefer to ferment at the lower range of the temperature band for any given yeast. As you point out, it works more accurately with lagers.

Brooo Brother

 

[NateBrew]

Some people claim to have reached FG within 2 days!

I see stuff like this a lot, but I have ale fermentations that finish in 2 days fairly commonly. Especially with lower gravity beers (1.035-1.045), if fermentation takes more than 48 hours something is wrong. The Milds and Scottish ales down at 1.035 are often done at 36 hours. In any case, I still do FFTs on those and they always finish first but usually once I realize it has finished I need to immediately transfer the main batch because it is already at the spunding point.

The biggest problem is when the yeast's schedule doesn't line up with life and they are done when you are at work, asleep, whatever. Then I usually transfer whenever I can get to it, and if there is still activity I'll sugar prime in the keg and transfer active beer onto that sugar. If I totally missed it, then fermenter prime or split between fermenter and keg priming.

 

[CEO Keg King]

I'm curious if there is somewhere to source the SS float balls with an eye rather than having to buy the whole set up.

Keg King in Australia sell them so try their reseller Northern Brewer maybe?

 

[Brooothru]

I see stuff like this a lot, but I have ale fermentations that finish in 2 days fairly commonly. Especially with lower gravity beers (1.035-1.045), if fermentation takes more than 48 hours something is wrong. The Milds and Scottish ales down at 1.035 are often done at 36 hours. In any case, I still do FFTs on those and they always finish first but usually once I realize it has finished I need to immediately transfer the main batch because it is already at the spunding point.

The biggest problem is when the yeast's schedule doesn't line up with life and they are done when you are at work, asleep, whatever. Then I usually transfer whenever I can get to it, and if there is still activity I'll sugar prime in the keg and transfer active beer onto that sugar. If I totally missed it, then fermenter prime or split between fermenter and keg priming.

It's been a while since I started a ferment at anything lower than 1.055 OG (except for a starter ), and that was a lager. I also like to ferment ales at the lower end of their temperature range. Lately I've been using Nottingham yeast and have been impressed with how quickly it starts and how rapidly it finishes, even at lower temps. I also like how clear it drops, often with little to no cold crashing. I'd forgotten how nice a dry yeast is to work with, although Nottie doesn't seem to bring a lot to the mix. It just stays out of the way of the hops and malts, chugging' away and doin' it's thing.

I'm not a big fan of phenolics or sour flavors, but honestly I've been getting a bit bored with Chico and some of the West Coast yeasts. Still, I've rarely had beers finish (for spunding purposes) in less than 4 days and generally in the 4-7 day range. I prefer the yeast to show good manners at the dinner table over feeding frenzies.

Brooo Brother

 

[whovous]

Can we revisit my September problem? Please recall that I filled a 3 gallon keg to the top and got all sorts of leakage, then used a picnic tap to drain a quart or more and finished spunding. I was unable to get the temp as low as I wanted before serving it at a family event. Thanks to the higher temp, my pours were pretty foamy even with the flow control dialed way down, but I managed to serve the beer and it was well received.

Then I went away for a week. Now, the temp is where it belongs, but I am basically getting nothing but foam and hissing no matter how I set the flow control. I have a Clear Beer or maybe a Top Draw in this keg. The other weird thing is that if I pull the poppet to release pressure, it hisses very lightly for a very long time, from which I infer that the pressure relief valve is clogged as well.

I have tried shaking the keg, as I have had some trouble with the Top Draw in the past that was remedied by shaking, but it does not seem to do much good this time. I am not getting beer from the keg, even though it is more than half full.

What do I do next? I (mistakenly) tried removing the lid back in September, and it seems I was lucky to have failed. Should I release the pressure as best as I can and try removing the lid outside in case it blows? I can replace the lid with a carbing lid and attach yet another Clear Beer to it and just leave the other one in place until the keg kicks. This is more than a little kludgy, but it seems like it should minimize the amount of time the remaining product is exposed to O2. It will also give me a clean pressure relief valve.

Is there something less invasive to try first? If not, just how should I remove the lid? Whack it with a hammer until something happens? This all seems like a recipe for disaster, but I really want to save the remaining beer.

 

[balrog]

If you release pressure from the PRV until no more hissing, you should be able to unscrew that (all my various kegs have unscrewable PRV in the lids) and see about the cloggage. If **ALL** the pressure is off, you can do whatever you want to in order to remove the lid. Hammer, elbow, blunt end of a small furry woodland elf, whatever. Only when you can get eyes on the top draw can you determine next steps.

 

[whovous]

Dumb question based on never before removing one: Will anything fall off in my beer if I unscrew the PRV from the top?

 

[balrog]

YMMV but I sincerely doubt it.
All of mine are single parts

 

[whovous]

That looks convincing. Plan A will be to swap the PRV from another lid and then re-pressurize. If that does not work I get to find out whether the gunk glued the lid to the keg.

 

[lowtones84]

I assume that we're all putting enough pressure on to seat the keg's lid at least as we begin spunding? I tried it for the first time using the priming sugar method after fermentation was done and made sure to put about 15 lbs. on to seat the lid. I was using the Blowtie and I never really got any gas to come through it, so I'm wondering it the sugar solution even really got fermented. I was aiming for pretty low volumes, so gas escaping probably wouldn't even be obvious. Could that amount of pressure just to seat the lid restrict the yeast's activity? Wlp 007.

 

[Dland]

I assume that we're all putting enough pressure on to seat the keg's lid at least as we begin spunding? .

This is good reminder. Pressurizing keg with CO2 after racking is an important step. If seal is good, it gets to pressure and holds, keg seal being pushed up, one can often hear it creak into place. Then it can spund away without precious carbonating CO2 leaking out main lid seal.

 

[doug293cz]

I assume that we're all putting enough pressure on to seat the keg's lid at least as we begin spunding? I tried it for the first time using the priming sugar method after fermentation was done and made sure to put about 15 lbs. on to seat the lid. I was using the Blowtie and I never really got any gas to come through it, so I'm wondering it the sugar solution even really got fermented. I was aiming for pretty low volumes, so gas escaping probably wouldn't even be obvious. Could that amount of pressure just to seat the lid restrict the yeast's activity? Wlp 007.

That amount of pressure will not affect the yeast. And, that pressure will drop as the beer absorbs some of the CO2 from the headspace. It's possible that the pressure dropped low enough that the keg unsealed before the pressure could build up. Do you have a pressure gauge in parallel with the Blowtie, so that you can monitor pressure over time?

Brew on

 

[Schlenkerla]

I assume that we're all putting enough pressure on to seat the keg's lid at least as we begin spunding? I tried it for the first time using the priming sugar method after fermentation was done and made sure to put about 15 lbs. on to seat the lid. I was using the Blowtie and I never really got any gas to come through it, so I'm wondering it the sugar solution even really got fermented. I was aiming for pretty low volumes, so gas escaping probably wouldn't even be obvious. Could that amount of pressure just to seat the lid restrict the yeast's activity? Wlp 007.

Nope. You've heard of bottle bombs right?

Check your sugar addition. I use this Brewzor App.

I assume you got the temp right. Sometimes the yeast is just flocculant.

I always transfer to the keg before it's done. Rarely do have lack of pressure.

In the past when I have had issues it's been due to a leak. Make sure your keg is sealed good. Check the manhole and the beer serving poppet.

 

[doug293cz]

Nope. You've heard of bottle bombs right?

...

Bottle bombs? You know it's in a keg with a spunding valve don't you?

Brew on

 

[lowtones84]

Bottle bombs? You know it's in a keg with a spunding valve don't you?

Brew on

I think Schlenkerla was just referring to the principle that makes bottle bombs happen to show that the small amount of pressure to seat the keg lid would have no effect on the yeast. Which is what I was figuring.

I do have a gauge on the blowtie as well, though I'm not sure it's all functioning correctly. I'll test it again as I'm going to try the whole process again on a mild that just finished up. Didn't have an available keg before today to transfer to, so couldn't try out transferring before it was finished this time. Thanks for the replies!

 

[doug293cz]

That amount of pressure will not affect the yeast. And, that pressure will drop as the beer absorbs some of the CO2 from the headspace. It's possible that the pressure dropped low enough that the keg unsealed before the pressure could build up. Do you have a pressure gauge in parallel with the Blowtie, so that you can monitor pressure over time?

Brew on

Did some calcs for 5.0 gal of beer in a standard corny, fermented at 68°F, pressurized to 15 psi, and left at 70°F to naturally carbonate. If fermentation for carbonation was slow to start, then the 15 psi could drop as low as 1.5 psi due to reabsorption. The question is: at what pressure will the particular corny lid "unseal"?

Brew on

 

[Robert65]

YMMV but I sincerely doubt it.
All of mine are single parts
View attachment 648766

All of mine have a very tiny o-ring on the tip which can in fact get dislodged and fall in. I like the look of those one piece jobs you've got. Especially since that tiny o-ring is the only one on a keg I've never been able to buy as a replacement.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Bottle bombs? You know it's in a keg with a spunding valve don't you?

Brew on

Right. That yeast would jump wimp out since its in a big ol strong keg. Like it's no sense in trying. I give up in trying to blow up a keg. I'll just go into hibernation until spring. [emoji16]

@lowtones84. Nailed my thought.

 

[Robert65]

The question is: at what pressure will the particular corny lid "unseal"?

Is "seating" the lid with pressure anything other than forcing a final adjustment of the alignment? If that's all it is, will the lid ever "unseat" without some outside intervention?

 

[doug293cz]

Is "seating" the lid with pressure anything other than forcing a final adjustment of the alignment? If that's all it is, will the lid ever "unseat" without some outside intervention?

In most cases yes, but in cases where there is some minor deformation of the keg opening, or the keg lid, it may take pressure to deform the "O" ring enough to force a seal. And, there is always the possibility of leaks elsewhere.

Brew on

 

[Robert65]

In most cases yes, but in cases where there is some minor deformation of the keg opening, or the keg lid, it may take pressure to deform the "O" ring enough to force a seal. And, there is always the possibility of leaks elsewhere.

Brew on

If someone finds they have such a deformation that doesn't allow a positive seal with a normal o-ring, William's sells a slightly larger cross section o-ring. Problem solved, except for those leaks elsewhere. [emoji482]

 

[Schlenkerla]

In most cases yes, but in cases where there is some minor deformation of the keg opening, or the keg lid, it may take pressure to deform the "O" ring enough to force a seal. And, there is always the possibility of leaks elsewhere.

Brew on

If I have issues I usually have to rotate the manhole 180 degrees and re-attach. Then it's good to go.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I keep pitching new batches on top of old, and the old hops are really adding up in my topedo 15.5G. Is there a big bag I could swap out when pitching new batches? That would hold a pound of hops? If it could take boiling water that would be a bonus and I could pour from kettle into a hop bag, to catch boil hops and as a pour over hop-stand?

I was going to take out the oak staves and start my next batch “fresh,” save the staves for the yeast inoculation. But I wanted to transfer and hadn’t cold crashed it yet and the transfer went sideways.
Fortunately the new batch was small and the last batch was low abv, so I crammed them into one (mixed), to get me through the holidays. I’ll be sure to cold crash before attempting a transfer.
Next batch will probably be golden DME and a few darkening adjuncts, if I don’t go ESB. 1lb Northern Brewer hops. I can’t find Glacier hops any more. I thought those dry hopped well, though I’ve been chasing the beer sniffing dragon since Covid.

 

[doug293cz]

I keep pitching new batches on top of old, and the old hops are really adding up in my topedo 15.5G. Is there a big bag I could swap out when pitching new batches? That would hold a pound of hops? If it could take boiling water that would be a bonus and I could pour from kettle into a hop bag, to catch boil hops and as a pour over hop-stand?

I was going to take out the oak staves and start my next batch “fresh,” save the staves for the yeast inoculation. But I wanted to transfer and hadn’t cold crashed it yet and the transfer went sideways.
Fortunately the new batch was small and the last batch was low abv, so I crammed them into one (mixed), to get me through the holidays. I’ll be sure to cold crash before attempting a transfer.
Next batch will probably be golden DME and a few darkening adjuncts, if I don’t go ESB. 1lb Northern Brewer hops. I can’t find Glacier hops any more. I thought those dry hopped well, though I’ve been chasing the beer sniffing dragon since Covid.

A polyester voile (fine weave) bag will do what you want. Many brewers use them for the "Brew in a Bag" (BIAB) process. @wilserbrewer is an HBT sponsor, and makes custom sized bags for a reasonable price.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

Whole cone hops would work best. If you are dry hopping, a voile bag works. If you are trying to filter out post boil stuff (hops and trub) it will be tough as the particles are very fine.