Experimental changes to a Brewers Best Oktoberfest kit - I have a few questions

[sixstring]

Link to the recipe and instructions: https://www.brewersbestkits.com/assets/PDF/5gallonRecipes/1028_GermanOctoberfest_Recipe.pdf

Ok, to set the scene...
Decided to do brew day today instead of tomorrow (as we postponed a board game day to tomorrow, so I don't want to be stuck brewing while my wife and our friend play Terraforming Mars or something).

So I got the kit started and decided to try a few "extra" changes.

I never sparged the grain before, just let it drain over the kettle. Today I decided to try sparging. I felt it was pretty successful, as the sparge water that went through the grain bag turned a lot lighter. Hopefully that was ok to do with an extract kit?

Then I decided to (based on another thread discussion about when to add LME/DME to the wort) add my DME and LME (all of it) to the wort before it started boiling.
Have to say I feel like this was a much better choice than waiting to boil. Because I didn't need to worry about boil over at all. It was a night and day difference for me. And no more steam scalding.

Those were the only two things I did differently. Hops were added at the specified time during boil, etc.

The estimated OG on this particular kit is specified to 1.052 - 1.056.
However, when I took my reading after topping up the FV to 5 gallons, my OG was 1.062.
Was this due to something I did differently? The sparging? I've never seen my OG be higher than the expected range before.
Also will this affect the ABV at the end of the fermentation?
I'm actually looking forward to seeing what it ends up as. I'm holding a fermenting temp of 55F as it does recommend 53F-59F. Which is a first for me too, as I've only been stuck at 72F ish before now.

Hoping someone can help explain why my OG was higher and maybe what caused it. It's not an issue, just curious as to why the OG was higher than I thought it would be.

 

[mac_1103]

There's really not much point to sparging your steeping grains. They're only in the recipe for color and flavor, not fermentables. Sparging is to get more of the converted sugar out of mashed grains. If the extra few gravity points came from the sparge, then they might not be fermentable and your final gravity might wind up a bit higher than expected too. The only other reason I can think of for the OG being a touch high is the volume being a touch low.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I never sparged the grain before, just let it drain over the kettle. Today I decided to try sparging. I felt it was pretty successful, as the sparge water that went through the grain bag turned a lot lighter. Hopefully that was ok to do with an extract kit?

When sparging steeping grains with just water, you'll get a small amount of additional colors, flavors, and sugars.

With a small enough amount of sparge water, I was able to measure the SG with a refractometer. By the time the SG measurement was scaled to the batch size, it was effectively zero SG.

 

[micraftbeer]

Your slightly modified process sounds great/logical.

As above comments, gravity difference probably not due to the sparge on specialty grains. Could be volume as @mac_1103 said. Could be a more vigorous boil, boiled off more water, could be your gravity reading was somewhat off.

But the gravity difference is minor and not really worth trying to nail down in my opinion.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm sure the beer is fine with these minor changes, but as someone that designs extract kits I recommend following the instructions. If it doesn't turn out like you hope, it's more challenging to troubleshoot.

 

[IslandLizard]

Congrats with your successful brew day!

The estimated OG on this particular kit is specified to 1.052 - 1.056.
However, when I took my reading after topping up the FV to 5 gallons, my OG was 1.062.

Overshooting gravity is hard to fathom with extract kits. The amount of extract in a certain volume will yield a predictable gravity. Yours is around 10% higher.
Is this the first time you're overshooting the mark with such a kit?

Some possible causes:
● Maybe the kit instructions expect you leave 1/4-1/2 gallon of trubby (high gravity) wort behind in the kettle?
● Have you verified that the level marker of the fermenter is indeed at 5 gallons volume?
● The amounts of fermentables were not accurate (very small chance).

That said, beer is beer, a somewhat stronger version may be welcome!
Have you had gravity overshoots (at the correct kit's volume) like this before?

I'm curious what type or strain of yeast was supplied with the kit. Any indication or just generic packaging?

 

[mac_1103]

I'm curious what type or strain of yeast was supplied with the kit. Any indication or just generic packaging?

Looks like Diamond Lager.

 

[sixstring]

Congrats with your successful brew day!

Overshooting gravity is hard to fathom with extract kits. The amount of extract in a certain volume will yield a predictable gravity. Yours is around 10% higher.
Is this the first time you're overshooting the mark with such a kit?

Some possible causes:
Maybe the kit instructions expect you leave 1/4-1/2 gallon of trubby (high gravity) wort behind in the kettle?
Have you verified that the level marker of the fermenter is indeed at 5 gallons volume?
The amounts of fermentables were not accurate (very small chance).

That said, beer is beer, a somewhat stronger version may be welcome!
Have you had gravity overshoots (at the correct kit's volume) like this before?

I'm curious what type or strain of yeast was supplied with the kit. Any indication or just generic packaging?

Quick responses:
Definitely 5 gallons in FV. The anvils have a nice measurement on the side inside their FV buckets. So it's an easy process to bring it back to 5 gallon level.
Never had an overshoot before that I know of. However... I have been known to forget to take the OG reading anyway So it's possible.

Yeast included this time was Saf Lager S-23: https://fermentis.com/en/product/saflager-s‑23/

 

[IslandLizard]

Looks like Diamond Lager.

Ah, thanks!
Amazon seems to be the only vendor where the kit's actual content is shown.
None of the other sources I looked at do, they just show a box, and no ingredients or list.

 

[sixstring]

There's really not much point to sparging your steeping grains. They're only in the recipe for color and flavor, not fermentables. Sparging is to get more of the converted sugar out of mashed grains. If the extra few gravity points came from the sparge, then they might not be fermentable and your final gravity might wind up a bit higher than expected too. The only other reason I can think of for the OG being a touch high is the volume being a touch low.

My reason for sparging was primarily to understand what I was doing with it and how it works. Sort of a practice run for AG batches later.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeast included this time was Saf Lager S-23: https://fermentis.com/en/product/saflager-s‑23/

That'll work too!

 

[IslandLizard]

My reason for sparging was primarily to understand what I was doing with it and how it works. Sort of a practice run for AG batches later.

I've always sparged steeping grains. Sparging them twice actually, with warm/hot water, and never found it hurt anything.
Now our water is very soft (low alkalinity) so that helps keep the tannin extraction to a minimum, as it's pH driven. The pH of the sparge should be kept below 5.8!

 

[sixstring]

I've always sparged steeping grains. Sparging them twice actually, with warm/hot water, and never found it hurt anything.
Now our water is very soft (low alkalinity) so that helps keep the tannin extraction to a minimum, as it's pH driven. The pH of the sparge should be kept below 5.8!

I use the RO water I have that's got an extra PH thing on it to make water taste nice. But i think that brings it up to about 7-7.5ish pH. I've used this for all my brewing so far and never tasted anything funny, but never sparged before either. So I guess I need to make sure if i continue to sparge (and probably will once i get my AIO for BIAB recipes), that I need to get some sort of calcium additive? Gypsum or something?

 

[IslandLizard]

I use the RO water I have that's got an extra PH thing on it to make water taste nice. But i think that brings it up to about 7-7.5ish pH. I've used this for all my brewing so far and never tasted anything funny, but never sparged before either. So I guess I need to make sure if i continue to sparge (and probably will once i get my AIO for BIAB recipes), that I need to get some sort of calcium additive? Gypsum or something?

Ideally, you don't want any ions want control of the amount and kind of ions in your steeping, mashing, or sparging waters. The malts and grains used will usually acidify the grist mix naturally, keeping the pH of the "system at hand" below 6.0 (5.2-5.4 for most mashes, 5.2-5.8 for most steeping and sparging) when using soft or RO water.

The pH of RO (or distilled) water is irrelevant, since RO water contains no ions and thus has no (or very, very little) buffering capacity, which is what you're after.
That's why using very soft (low mineral & low alkalinity) RO water is ideal for steeping and mashing, due to its low buffering capacity (buffering resists change of pH).

Using RO water becomes even more important while sparging (rinsing), when balancing buffering content has been highly depleted after draining the relatively mineral-rich wort from the previous step(s).

[Added]
The RO water "with the pH thing added" you're buying has been re-mineralized (and alkalinized) to have better flavor for drinking straight up. The total ion content may still be very low, making it still suitable for mashes and such, but unless you know what's in there (ask?) you're best of starting with a blank slate, being plain, fresh RO water with close to 0 ppm. The $10-15 TDS meter will tell you the total ppm (mineral content).

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

My first guess for the gravity being high was you ended up with less than five gallons in the fermenter. If you are sure that's not it, there are a couple of other possibilities:

• In a partial boil where you top off with water, the wort will often stratify and be thicker at the bottom. Your gravity reading can vary greatly depending on where you pulled your sample from. I stopped measuring SG in extract batches for this specific reason.
• Those packages of DME are weighed and filled by hand. Maybe your pack had some extra.
• With extract, the level of solids in LME and moisture level in DME can vary from batch to back. Maybe your LME was extra thick and head some extra sugars.

None of this is anything to be too concerned with. If your cleaning and sanitation were good, and you ferment the wort properly, your beer should be fine.

 

[sixstring]

Ideally, you don't want any ions want control of the amount and kind of ions in your steeping, mashing, or sparging waters. The malts and grains used will usually acidify the grist mix naturally, keeping the pH of the "system at hand" below 6.0 (5.2-5.4 for most mashes, 5.2-5.8 for most steeping and sparging) when using soft or RO water.

The pH of RO (or distilled) water is irrelevant, since RO water contains no ions and thus has no (or very, very little) buffering capacity, which is what you're after.
That's why using very soft (low mineral & low alkalinity) RO water is ideal for steeping and mashing, due to its low buffering capacity (buffering resists change of pH).

Using RO water becomes even more important while sparging (rinsing), when balancing buffering content has been highly depleted after draining the relatively mineral-rich wort from the previous step(s).

[Added]
The RO water "with the pH thing added" you're buying has been re-mineralized (and alkalinized) to have better flavor for drinking straight up. The total ion content may still be very low, making it still suitable for mashes and such, but unless you know what's in there (ask?) you're best of starting with a blank slate, being plain, fresh RO water with close to 0 ppm. The $10-15 TDS meter will tell you the total ppm (mineral content).

It adds calcium carbonate mineral back into the water
https://www.apecwater.com/products/...ization-inline-filters-10-w-3-8-quick-connect

But sounds like it's not going to be an issue. Which is good, as I'm not getting another water system or making a bypass for sparge water alone

My first guess for the gravity being high was you ended up with less than five gallons in the fermenter. If you are sure that's not it, there are a couple of other possibilities:

• In a partial boil where you top off with water, the wort will often stratify and be thicker at the bottom. Your gravity reading can vary greatly depending on where you pulled your sample from. I stopped measuring SG in extract batches for this specific reason.
• Those packages of DME are weighed and filled by hand. Maybe your pack had some extra.
• With extract, the level of solids in LME and moisture level in DME can vary from batch to back. Maybe your LME was extra thick and head some extra sugars.

None of this is anything to be too concerned with. If your cleaning and sanitation were good, and you ferment the wort properly, your beer should be fine.

Oh interesting. I do actually pull a reading from the bottom of the bucket by pouring it out of the tap on the fermenter. Maybe that's the cause then.
And yep, my sanitizing process is pretty thorough. Nothing touches anything without being sanitized and then sprayed down with sanitizer too.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry, I was under the impression you were purchasing RO water...
Now we know you have your own RO system, use your TDS meter to verify the filters and membrane are working as intended.

It adds calcium carbonate mineral back into the water
https://www.apecwater.com/products/...ization-inline-filters-10-w-3-8-quick-connect

Your add-on CaCO3 cartridge will only add negligible amounts of Ca++, HCO3-, and CO3-- ions, so that water should be safe for brewing.
You can test the total amount of dissolved ions in your final water with the TDS meter. It should be a little bit higher than zero, but not much.

 

[Bobby_M]

It adds calcium carbonate mineral back into the water
https://www.apecwater.com/products/...ization-inline-filters-10-w-3-8-quick-connect

But sounds like it's not going to be an issue. Which is good, as I'm not getting another water system or making a bypass for sparge water alone


Oh interesting. I do actually pull a reading from the bottom of the bucket by pouring it out of the tap on the fermenter. Maybe that's the cause then.
And yep, my sanitizing process is pretty thorough. Nothing touches anything without being sanitized and then sprayed down with sanitizer too.

It depends on how much is getting added back in whether it would be worth inserting a tee with side port valve to bypass it. You can get a cheap TDS pen meter on Amazon and see what the difference between pure RO and remineralized looks like. Just make sure you run the RO for about 3 minutes before collecting a sample (in both tests).

 

[sixstring]

It depends on how much is getting added back in whether it would be worth inserting a tee with side port valve to bypass it. You can get a cheap TDS pen meter on Amazon and see what the difference between pure RO and remineralized looks like. Just make sure you run the RO for about 3 minutes before collecting a sample (in both tests).

I've ordered a TDS meter. Once i get the results I'll post here. And I just realized, making a bypass on this ph+ filter would be relatively simple since it's all duotight connectors

 

[sixstring]

Good news is the anvil cooling coil is doing a nice job. The CCG filled up really fast and the bubbler in the bucket looks like it's one of those bubblers in an aquarium, just constant bubbles. So that hopefully means the yeast is having a grand time at the temp I set and maintain.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm holding a fermenting temp of 55F

the bubbler in the bucket looks like it's one of those bubblers in an aquarium, just constant bubbles.

That sounds fast for a Lager fermentation, especially one that's just started...
Is the actual temp of the beer in the bucket around 55F? How are you measuring that?
Is the fermenter (bucket) inside a temp controlled fridge or such?

 

[sixstring]

That sounds fast for a Lager fermentation, especially one that's just started...
Is the actual temp of the beer in the bucket around 55F? How are you measuring that?
Is the fermenter (bucket) inside a temp controlled fridge or such?

I've got the anvil cooling system for the bucket fermenters. a thermowell down in the beer through the rubber stopper and cooling it with a cooling coil (also through the rubber stopper), insulated jacket around it (stainless steel buckets sporting orange wet suits )
Then I've got an inkbird thermostat sitting in the thermowell and switching the water pump on as soon as it goes 1 degree above what i set it to (54F, so it can cool the surrounding liquid and try to maintain the temp). I can take another picture tomorrow if you want to see it. I posted one with the set up on here though I think (looking now): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...fv-is-this-going-to-work.736495/post-10467755
I've changed my bowl of water out for a 1 gallon carboy now as it holds the tubes in better, but that's pretty much what I've got going. Just two of the fermenters at once right now.

Perhaps the temp of the wort is warmer further from the cooling coil. Regardless, I'm going to just try and maintain the temp it's at. I'll order another Oktoberfest kit and then try fermenting that with the temp set down to say 50F? That might help cool the wort more through the whole of the bucket.
I'm guessing the lager yeast should've taken longer to start than it has, and most likely it's due to the temp being warmer than it shows around the coil?
All good though. I would like to test the temp further out on the bucket though now. But I don't want to take the lid off. I'll wait for now, as I really want this Oktoberfest to be my first attempt at brewing with lager temps rather than ale temps (or at least perceived lager temps) and see how it compares to my last Oktoberfest I brewed at ale temps

 

[IslandLizard]

I posted one with the set up on here though I think (looking now): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...fv-is-this-going-to-work.736495/post-10467755

OK, I'll re-read that whole thread in the above link.^

Can you measure the temp at the outer wall of the fermenter, about halfway up to the fill level, right underneath the neoprene jacket? That may be a good area that reflects the average temp of your fermenting beer inside.

I know you said you don't want another fridge...
Still, I have the feeling you'd be much better off using a dedicated fridge or (upright) freezer, large enough to fit your fermenter(s). This is because I doubt your "external cooling system" is up to the task. Even less so to keep the fermenting beer at 55°F.

 

[sixstring]

OK, I'll re-read that whole thread in the above link.^

Can you measure the temp at the outer wall of the fermenter, about halfway up to the fill level, right underneath the neoprene jacket? That may be a good area that reflects the average temp of your fermenting beer inside.

I know you said you don't want another fridge...
Still, I have the feeling you'd be much better off using a dedicated fridge or (upright) freezer, large enough to fit your fermenter(s). This is because I doubt your "external cooling system" is up to the task. Even less so to keep the fermenting beer at 55°F.

Link was straight to the post I added with my setup

I put a temp sensor on the outside of the bucket mid way up. 55F reading right there. Which I was surprised on. Maybe that cooling coil is more efficient than expected

 

[sixstring]

Kegging this one today. It's been oxygen free since it went in the FV and kept at lager fermenting temps the whole time. I'm guessing 2 weeks isn't enough time for the flavours on this one to really shine, but I also don't have enough of my current Amber Ale to last the weekend. But I am hopeful that this batch will turn out nice though. Cold crashed for 36 hours and had the CCG attached (I love these things).

Plan on the next one is to let it sit in the FV for 4 weeks before I keg, but in order to get to that point, I want to have a few kegs ready and stored so I don't need to keep brewing just to keep beer in the fridge.

 

[sixstring]

Sampled this evening (enjoying another pint right now) and my son and one of my mates gave it a try - very positive responses (one was "Now that's what I call a real oktoberfest" Mostly hyperbole I'm sure, but still made my feathers puff out a bit)
ABV ended up as 6.5%. Completely not what it should of been. That was accidental, but honestly it's not at all bad. Of all my brews, it's my 2nd best batch, based on flavour. This one was oxygen free from the moment it got into the FV. And the taste difference, if that's what caused it, is so incredibly noticeable, I can't wait to get the next few batches done this way too.

So I can't credit one person for helping me get this one brewed the way it turned out, so thanks to everyone that had input over many threads.