just starting out: help me decide on a culture!

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Hi all, i'm just getting a start at cheesemaking, have been reading a lot after finding inspiration on this forum a few months ago.

I can't find supplies locally so i'm looking at this online supplier, initially I plan to make cream cheese and some fresh soft cheese like neufchatel. I hope to make camembert after I get the process down otherwise.

Please take a look at the multitude of culture options from this supplier and let me know which you would recommend for me. Thanks!

https://www.thecheesemaker.com/categories/Ingredients/Cultures/Mesophilic/

or if you recommend something else altogether from a different supplier let me know. I see some options at cheesemaking.com but those seem to be 10x the price for the same amount of culture.

 

[bernardsmith]

I may be a contrarian but I recommend that you make kefir and use the kefir as your culture. Kefir contains bacteria that are both thermophilic and mesophilic so you can make anything from Squeaky curds to Feta; from Cheddar to Caerphilly, and from Swiss to Mozarella... but I am an advocate of "cultural diversity" - something that lab cultured cultures do not have... (see The Art of Natural Cheesemaking by David Asher , Chelsea Green Publishing, 2015) - and once you have acquired your starter the only cost is the milk

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I may be a contrarian but I recommend that you make kefir and use the kefir as your culture. Kefir contains bacteria that are both thermophilic and mesophilic so you can make anything from Squeaky curds to Feta; from Cheddar to Caerphilly, and from Swiss to Mozarella... but I am an advocate of "cultural diversity" - something that lab cultured cultures do not have... (see The Art of Natural Cheesemaking by David Asher , Chelsea Green Publishing, 2015) - and once you have acquired your starter the only cost is the milk

This is an interesting take for sure. So I assume I can just buy any kefir off the shelf from a natural grocer that says it has live cultures, then make up a half-gallon of starter culture for freezing like they outline in 'home cheesemaking' by rikki carrol. I'll have to see if the library has the book you recommend, more information will certainly not hurt at this point!

The bit of reading from the online stores and it seems like some of single strain cultures dont impart alot of flavor to soft cheeses, thus I assume another benefit of cultural diversity is you will likely end up with some better flavor as well. thanks for your help getting me started!

 

[bernardsmith]

I don't know about freezing. Kefir contains yeasts and bacteria and I think that you can kill yeast by freezing (the moisture freezes into sharp crystals that rupture the cell walls from within.
I feed my kefir grains daily and when I want to make cheese I use about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of the kefir from previous day.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I don't know about freezing. Kefir contains yeasts and bacteria and I think that you can kill yeast by freezing (the moisture freezes into sharp crystals that rupture the cell walls from within.
I feed my kefir grains daily and when I want to make cheese I use about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of the kefir from previous day.

i just breezed what was freely available from that book on google preview. Sounds like a really cool book with a great take on making cheese in a more historic/nature way for sure. A couple questions:

1)do you use pasturized homogenized or raw milk? I get milk dilevered from a local dairy and it's great stuff, but still heated to 170F for 2 seconds and homogenized.
2) is keefer on the shelf at the hippy store a source of kefir grains or those are somehow filtered out from the liquid?

thanks!

 

[bernardsmith]

I buy my milk from the supermarket and with added calcium carbonate I don't have any trouble getting the rennet to set.

I bought what is called kefir grains and I use a slotted spoon every morning to strain the kefir into a bowl and replace the grains (they look like the florets on a stalk of cauliflower) in the mason jar that I refill with a cup or so of milk. (in 24 hours I have a sweeter kefir, in 48 hours the kefir is more sour)

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

my library has the book you recommended, I just requested it so i'll give it a read. We'll see if i can find some kefir grains around here somewhere. Are the packs of presumably dried kefir grains you can find online and presumably at hippy grocery stores good enough? is this what you started with?

 

[bernardsmith]

I guess I don't know what you mean by "hippy grocery store". I bought my grains on line. You might be able to find the grains at your LHBS.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I guess I don't know what you mean by "hippy grocery store". I bought my grains on line. You might be able to find the grains at your LHBS.

sorry for my slang. I meant something like a whole foods, or we have something even more extreme around here called natural grocer. Did you have trouble getting the grains going? I saw some selling on amazon but like 20% of the people said it took forever to get them big enough to really be useful, and others said they just didn't work at all.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Just picked up that book from the library, i'm excited to dig into this week. I actually want to my local natural grocer the other day and picked up some keifer and make some sour cream already for a dish i'm making this weekend which uses alot of sour cream. I saw they also sell the kefir grains there.

Is there a reason to make kefir from the grains vs. just pitching a bit of the kefir forward each day? I made a pint of kefir with 2% milk from the stuff I bought at the store this way, I liked it alot more than the stuff from the bottle actually, much more mild in flavor.

 

[bernardsmith]

Well, you have to regularly feed your grains so I imagine that if you cultured the milk with kefir that you made rather than with the grains the kefir will not fare as well over time. Feeding the grains also enables the grains to grow and mine have quintupled in size from when I bought them and they now take less time to culture more milk ...

 

[Owly055]

I've been making kefir for years, and read a lot about it............. My first go around I asked the same question and once the kefir started, I simply propagated it like yogurt. Once lost, the grains were gone for good, and I could not regrow them. While the product was still excellent, it was not quite the same, and reading about it, I found that the bacterial balance changes pretty radically when you propagate without grains. I was too lazy to strain the grains out. I then started over with fresh grains, and strain them religiously now.

H.W.

Just picked up that book from the library, i'm excited to dig into this week. I actually want to my local natural grocer the other day and picked up some keifer and make some sour cream already for a dish i'm making this weekend which uses alot of sour cream. I saw they also sell the kefir grains there.

Is there a reason to make kefir from the grains vs. just pitching a bit of the kefir forward each day? I made a pint of kefir with 2% milk from the stuff I bought at the store this way, I liked it alot more than the stuff from the bottle actually, much more mild in flavor.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I've been making kefir for years, and read a lot about it............. My first go around I asked the same question and once the kefir started, I simply propagated it like yogurt. Once lost, the grains were gone for good, and I could not regrow them. While the product was still excellent, it was not quite the same, and reading about it, I found that the bacterial balance changes pretty radically when you propagate without grains. I was too lazy to strain the grains out. I then started over with fresh grains, and strain them religiously now. H.W.

Thanks for this tip i'll pick up the grains if I go the kefir route (which is likely if I get into this long-term). I actually ordered the basic supplies last Friday, rennet and cheesecloth, and I got some of the MM100 culture to try for my first few batches, then figure I can migrate to a kefir culture if I do get more into this where I'm going to do it regularly and want to keep kefir going as well.

 

[Owly055]

Interestingly, I ran across this thread, with the mention of using kefir to culture cheese, a mere 15 minutes or so after I put grains in a gallon of milk specifically for that experiment. I'm not sure weather to let it go all the way and let it separate, or simply warm it and add rennet.

Thanks for this tip i'll pick up the grains if I go the kefir route (which is likely if I get into this long-term). I actually ordered the basic supplies last Friday, rennet and cheesecloth, and I got some of the MM100 culture to try for my first few batches, then figure I can migrate to a kefir culture if I do get more into this where I'm going to do it regularly and want to keep kefir going as well.

If you can't get kefir grains locally, I have a surplus, and could send you some.... they ship well. A little milk on some grains in a pill bottle.....

H.W.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I found a local grocer that has the grains in the refrigerated section, thanks. Also incidentally on nextdoor.com for my neighborhood (kind of like facebook for your neighborhood) i put out a call looking for kefir grains and was chatting with a gal who's been just pitching forward the same strain of kefir (without grains) for 2 years. she says the flavor hasn't changed significantly as she noticed. She also said if she lets it go too long it does separate and she makes a cottage cheese like cheese from it, FWIW.

Interestingly, I ran across this thread, with the mention of using kefir to culture cheese, a mere 15 minutes or so after I put grains in a gallon of milk specifically for that experiment. I'm not sure weather to let it go all the way and let it separate, or simply warm it and add rennet.
If you can't get kefir grains locally, I have a surplus, and could send you some.... they ship well. A little milk on some grains in a pill bottle.....
H.W.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Interestingly, I ran across this thread, with the mention of using kefir to culture cheese, a mere 15 minutes or so after I put grains in a gallon of milk specifically for that experiment. I'm not sure weather to let it go all the way and let it separate, or simply warm it and add rennet.

Well, you have to regularly feed your grains so I imagine that if you cultured the milk with kefir that you made rather than with the grains the kefir will not fare as well over time. Feeding the grains also enables the grains to grow and mine have quintupled in size from when I bought them and they now take less time to culture more milk ...

H.W.

I made some cream cheese last weekend with my MM100 culture, it is really great! Now i'm thinking about my first camembert and am considering using a kefir culture to get the pennicillum needed instead of buying more storebought culture. If I decide to keep kefir going for a while, have you guys had luck putting the grains with fresh milk in the fridge to significantly slow the reaction/growth? I'm just thinking if I get to where i have too much kefir around the house that might be a good way to keep the grains going (albeit slowely) for a week or two while I use up my stock on hand then pitch into a fresh batch of milk at room temp when I want to get them going again.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Owly055]

I made some cream cheese last weekend with my MM100 culture, it is really great! Now i'm thinking about my first camembert and am considering using a kefir culture to get the pennicillum needed instead of buying more storebought culture. If I decide to keep kefir going for a while, have you guys had luck putting the grains with fresh milk in the fridge to significantly slow the reaction/growth? I'm just thinking if I get to where i have too much kefir around the house that might be a good way to keep the grains going (albeit slowely) for a week or two while I use up my stock on hand then pitch into a fresh batch of milk at room temp when I want to get them going again.

Thanks for the advice!

That's exactly what I do........ I keep a pint jar with milk and my grains in it in the fridge. I make kefir frequently, and use it almost every day. If you intend to keep them long term in the fridge, you should probably drain off the kefir they produce in the fridge, and use it........ in cooking, or drink it, or whatever, and add fresh milk, at least once very couple of weeks.

H.W.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not at all certain that penicillin is found in kefir. There may be a dozen or more different bacteria and yeast but while it is a rich treasure house it is not the be all and end all of all cultures.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Not at all certain that penicillin is found in kefir. There may be a dozen or more different bacteria and yeast but while it is a rich treasure house it is not the be all and end all of all cultures.

I thought I read somewhere that penicillin is in kefir. I'll read that natural cheesemaking book you recommended over christmas break and see what it says.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

That's exactly what I do........ I keep a pint jar with milk and my grains in it in the fridge. I make kefir frequently, and use it almost every day. If you intend to keep them long term in the fridge, you should probably drain off the kefir they produce in the fridge, and use it........ in cooking, or drink it, or whatever, and add fresh milk, at least once very couple of weeks. H.W.

Obviously it depends on the size of the grains, but how long generally will it take the grains to turn the milk to kefir in the fridge?

 

[Owly055]

Not at all certain that penicillin is found in kefir. There may be a dozen or more different bacteria and yeast but while it is a rich treasure house it is not the be all and end all of all cultures.

I don't think penicillium candidum is in kefir from what I've read.............. However it also is not necessary to make white mold cheeses. geotrichium candidum which is virtually always used with penicillium candidum has the same effect basically, and apparently makes a fine brie if Ascher is to be believed. Geotrichium however does not yield the ultra smooth surface. Geotrichium is used with pennicilium to prevent skin slip.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Obviously it depends on the size of the grains, but how long generally will it take the grains to turn the milk to kefir in the fridge?

I have a LOT of grains, and I make kefir about once a week. By that time the milk is turned into a very nice creamy kefir. I'm tempted to try culturing my kefir in the fridge. It has some very nice mesophilic bacteria in it.

H.W.

 

[bernardsmith]

I thought I read somewhere that penicillin is in kefir. I'll read that natural cheesemaking book you recommended over christmas break and see what it says.

Here's what Cultures for Health says it has gleaned from published papers. Not entirely convinced how accurate this list is. I suspect that different sources of the grains will have different cultures and that some of the cultures that Asher refers to may be coming from the raw milk itself... but he does not suggest that penicillin is likely to be in the kefir.

https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/milk-kefir/milk-kefir-grains-composition-bacteria-yeast/