25 Gallon BIAB batch Tomorrow, A few Qs?

[estricklin]

Ok so I am going to brew a 25 Gallon batch of American Lite Lager tomorrow, using a bag I purchased from wilserbrewer. The grain bill includes 40 lbs of 6 row, and 18 lbs of long grain rice which I will cook ahead of time.

My pot only holds 25 gallons, so this may sound like a stretch, but my plan is to top back up after the boil with enough water to equal the 25 gallons.

One of my main concerns is calculating my mash volume/temperature. I would ideally be doing a protein rest also. I'm not sure how much space 40 lbs of grain and 18 lbs of rice is going to take up, so I have no idea how much water to heat up, or to what temperature. I was considering putting all the grain and cooked rice mixture into the bag, and just filling the pot with tap water until it's completely full, then lifting the bag out to heat it. Anyone know of any problems with letting grain sit for a while with room temp water in it. Don't think the time it would take to heat the mash water up to 135F or so (for a protein rest) before doing a real mash would cause it to sour. The water would be about 100-110 degrees if I had to guess because I was going to use 6 gallons of water to cook the rice with.

I think this may be one of those things where I'm just going to have to wing it and see what happens.

Also am thinking of using some halyard snaps to lift the bag with, so that the weight will be spread out.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

 

[MaxStout]

A 25 gal BIAB...this I have to see. Keep us posted on the volumes you end up using. And pics. We need pics!

Wilser will probably want a testimonial from you for the strength of the bag. 58 lbs of grain plus water will be a monster.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would work a sparge of some sort into your routine. I like the pour over sparge for simplicity. I would also suggest cinching the bag with a 8-10 inch loop of cord, details can be found by searching "BIAB hoisting with a ratchet pulley"

Sorry, I would provide the link, but I'm on my mobile.

Cook the rice well, I tend to over overcook adjuncts to be sure they are well gelatinized.

 

[estricklin]

A 25 gal BIAB...this I have to see. Keep us posted on the volumes you end up using. And pics. We need pics!

Wilser will probably want a testimonial from you for the strength of the bag. 58 lbs of grain plus water will be a monster.

Yeah, I'm jussssssssttt crazy enough to try it! There will be plenty of pics, don't worry, this isn't hypothetical, it's going down tomorrow!

I would work a sparge of some sort into your routine. I like the pour over sparge for simplicity. I would also suggest cinching the bag with a 8-10 inch loop of cord, details can be found by searching "BIAB hoisting with a ratchet pulley"

Sorry, I would provide the link, but I'm on my mobile.

Cook the rice well, I tend to over overcook adjuncts to be sure they are well gelatinized.

I am going to do a sparge, at least enough to fill the pot back up from the "missing" volume of the grain. I have some 5 gallon round coolers I can use to hold some hot water in. Normally I wouldn't mess with sparging but this is kind of a special case.

I will search for that and see what I can come up with.

I do usually cook the heck out of my rice, only reason I'm doing such a large batch on this go, is because I have brewed this beer many times over, and feel like I have it down fairly well, also wanting to do some yeast side by sides. I used to do cereal mashes but I sort of learned it wasn't worth the hassle. I get all my rice for free too!

 

[ong]

The 18 lbs of rice should occupy about 3 gallons or so, which leaves you 22 gallons to mash 40 lbs of barley. I use an 11 gallon pot and its *definitely* a stretch to mash 20 lbs in it. I'd have some contingency plans in mind if it turns out to be too tight a fit (like a second pot you can shift 5 gallons to for the mash).

 

[estricklin]

I would work a sparge of some sort into your routine. I like the pour over sparge for simplicity. I would also suggest cinching the bag with a 8-10 inch loop of cord, details can be found by searching "BIAB hoisting with a ratchet pulley"

Sorry, I would provide the link, but I'm on my mobile.

Cook the rice well, I tend to over overcook adjuncts to be sure they are well gelatinized.

If I'm seeing/reading this correctly, the preferred method, doesn't even use the draw string that's made into the bag? Simply wrap a loop around the middle of the bag, and run the loops back through itself to attach the pulley too, thus using the weight to not only hold the chord but to squeeze the 2 side of the bag more?

 

[Cider123]

First, let me say... I salute you.

I'm doing five gallon batches myself, with full volume mashing so I'm generally using 7-10 pounds of grain. I don't use any hoist. I just cinch and pull the bag out with my hands. I slip a old stainless oven rack that a school cafeteria was throwing out on top of my kettle and let the bag rest on top. I then use the kettle lid to press the bag against the rack, just like a tea bag and a spoon.

You could do the same and then pour your sparge water over top of the bag.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Ok so I am going to brew a 25 Gallon batch of American Lite Lager tomorrow, using a bag I purchased from wilserbrewer. The grain bill includes 40 lbs of 6 row, and 18 lbs of long grain rice which I will cook ahead of time.
You're a crazy person.

My pot only holds 25 gallons, so this may sound like a stretch, but my plan is to top back up after the boil with enough water to equal the 25 gallons.

One of my main concerns is calculating my mash volume/temperature.
Use my calculator to determine your mash volume, strike temps, how much you'll need to sparge @ http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

I would ideally be doing a protein rest also.

I'm not sure how much space 40 lbs of grain and 18 lbs of rice is going to take up, so I have no idea how much water to heat up, or to what temperature. 40 lbs + 18 Lb =58 lb, a lb occupies about 0.08 gal so around 4.64 gallons will be occupied by the grains, and they will absorb about the same amount

I was considering putting all the grain and cooked rice mixture into the bag, and just filling the pot with tap water until it's completely full, then lifting the bag out to heat it. Anyone know of any problems with letting grain sit for a while with room temp water in it.

nope, that's fine, you don't want to full remove the grains from the water though. You'll probably want to put a small false bottom on the pot if possible, and stir thoroughly while applying heat
Don't think the time it would take to heat the mash water up to 135F or so (for a protein rest) before doing a real mash would cause it to sour. The water would be about 100-110 degrees if I had to guess because I was going to use 6 gallons of water to cook the rice with.

I think this may be one of those things where I'm just going to have to wing it and see what happens.

Also am thinking of using some halyard snaps to lift the bag with, so that the weight will be spread out.
Use a 75 or 100lb pulley to lift this bad bag.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I'm pretty sure I can speak for everyone else here when I say, pics or it didn't happen!

 

[wilserbrewer]

Use my calculator to determine your mash volume, strike temps, how much you'll need to sparge @ http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

I'm not sure how much space 40 lbs of grain and 18 lbs of rice is going to take up, so I have no idea how much water to heat up, or to what temperature. 40 lbs + 18 Lb =58 lb, a lb occupies about 0.08 gal so around 4.64 gallons will be occupied by the grains, and they will absorb about the same amount apply salt here, mash calculators are predicated using barley, not cooked rice

Be warned, rice will take up much more volume than barley, and absorb a lot of water cooking. The most rice I have ever cooked is around 5 pounds, and it damn near chased me out of the kitchen.
Mash calculators typically do not accurately account for rice volume / absorption.

copied from here http://www.cooksinfo.com/rice
US equivalents for rice
1 cup rice uncooked = 7 oz / 200 g = 600 g ( 5 cups / 21 oz in weight) cooked *
1 pound of rice = 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 cups uncooked = 11 cups cooked


The maths tell me 18 lbs of rice will yield 198 cups cooked volume, or 12.4 gallons for the rice alone.

I was going to use 6 gallons of water to cook the rice with.

This seems reasonable, my link above roughs out to 5 gallons for cooking 18 lbs of rice, but if you plan on overcooking it....even 7 gallons wouldn't hurt IMO. Your goal is an over cooked rice mash soup, not fluffy rice like a restaurant would serve. If there is free starchy water present in the cooked rice, I add that to the mash as well. What I have done when adding cooked rice to the mash, is let the rice cool a bit so it doesn't alter your mash temp greatly. If the rice is still very hot, treat it as a decoction addition adding it to a cooler mash around 120-130. Add a portion of the hot rice, stir and check temp...perhaps a handful of ice cubes if your temps start heading north too quickly while adding the hot rice....

While a 25 gallon batch is possible, perhaps running a 20 gallon batch in your 25 gallon kettle would be good training...and trust me when I say I hate to be "the guy", the pessimist when it comes to large batch BIAB.

Take your time, especially when raising temps of the mash, and cooking the rice. The rice will want to scorch / stick to the bottom of the pot, stir well and stir often low/med heat. It will take much longer than you think to raise mash temp...RDWHAHB raising 20 - 30 degrees could take an hour....be vary wary of scorching.

Simply wrap a loop around the middle of the bag, and run the loops back through itself to attach the pulley

Correct, I would wrap the loop 2-3 times around the bag, feed the loop back through itself and pull it as tight as you can to cinch the bag, working it tight as more weight is applied...monitor for slipping as you proceed working the cinch loop tighter if needed.

A ratchet pulley would be ideal for hoisting the bag out of the kettle, especially as the rice may slow draining a bit. The ratchet pulley works well in that the bag can be slowly worked out of the kettle, allowing it to drain as it is slowly raised, reducing the weight all the while. I like to think of large bag hoisting like the birthing process, don't force it, rather just let it happen at it's own pace, plan on 20 minutes. This will be nothing like lifting an 11 lb grain bill with one hand, and slipping a grill grate under it with your free hand.

Perhaps this will inspire you....145 gallon BIAB
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=483965

Good luck, keep a clear head and take your time!
To paraphrase AC/DC...
For those about to brew, WE SALUTE YOU!

 

[estricklin]

Be warned, rice will take up much more volume than barley, and absorb a lot of water cooking. The most rice I have ever cooked is around 5 pounds, and it damn near chased me out of the kitchen.
Mash calculators typically do not accurately account for rice volume / absorption.

copied from here http://www.cooksinfo.com/rice
US equivalents for rice
1 cup rice uncooked = 7 oz / 200 g = 600 g ( 5 cups / 21 oz in weight) cooked *
1 pound of rice = 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 cups uncooked = 11 cups cooked


The maths tell me 18 lbs of rice will yield 198 cups cooked volume, or 12.4 gallons for the rice alone.



This seems reasonable, my link above roughs out to 5 gallons for cooking 18 lbs of rice, but if you plan on overcooking it....even 7 gallons wouldn't hurt IMO. Your goal is an over cooked rice mash soup, not fluffy rice like a restaurant would serve. If there is free starchy water present in the cooked rice, I add that to the mash as well. What I have done when adding cooked rice to the mash, is let the rice cool a bit so it doesn't alter your mash temp greatly. If the rice is still very hot, treat it as a decoction addition adding it to a cooler mash around 120-130. Add a portion of the hot rice, stir and check temp...perhaps a handful of ice cubes if your temps start heading north too quickly while adding the hot rice....

While a 25 gallon batch is possible, perhaps running a 20 gallon batch in your 25 gallon kettle would be good training...and trust me when I say I hate to be "the guy", the pessimist when it comes to large batch BIAB.

Take your time, especially when raising temps of the mash, and cooking the rice. The rice will want to scorch / stick to the bottom of the pot, stir well and stir often low/med heat. It will take much longer than you think to raise mash temp...RDWHAHB raising 20 - 30 degrees could take an hour....be vary wary of scorching.



Correct, I would wrap the loop 2-3 times around the bag, feed the loop back through itself and pull it as tight as you can to cinch the bag, working it tight as more weight is applied...monitor for slipping as you proceed working the cinch loop tighter if needed.

A ratchet pulley would be ideal for hoisting the bag out of the kettle, especially as the rice may slow draining a bit. The ratchet pulley works well in that the bag can be slowly worked out of the kettle, allowing it to drain as it is slowly raised, reducing the weight all the while. I like to think of large bag hoisting like the birthing process, don't force it, rather just let it happen at it's own pace, plan on 20 minutes. This will be nothing like lifting an 11 lb grain bill with one hand, and slipping a grill grate under it with your free hand.

Perhaps this will inspire you....145 gallon BIAB
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=483965

Good luck, keep a clear head and take your time!
To paraphrase AC/DC...
For those about to brew, WE SALUTE YOU!

I always overcook my rice, and I do the same as you and let it cool down some while I'm heating my strike water. Getting the temp just right is about the hardest part in my experience. I am going to kind of use the same plan for that as I have when I've done all my 10 gallon batches of American Lite Lagers.

I appreciate the advice, it's go time, I'm headed to get the propane right.........NOW.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ok cool, have fun. Sounds like you've been down this road before, just in a smaller vehicle.

 

[Setsumi]

Wow, 26 kg of grain and 94 litres of beer, in a single BIAB. That is where I want to be. (Note to self; you need more kegs).

I want you to succeed, , no I want your baib setup!

My suggestions:
Use a HOIST!!!
After rice is cooked use an electric blender to mush the rice and if possible mash with amylase before adding to regular mash.

 

[estricklin]

Ok we got off to a bad start unfortunately. The wife was going to visit her mom today, and she took my car keys with her.....keys to my Jeep, work truck....nada, nothing, zippo. My cousin is helping me brew this, and we decided not to let a little propane shortage stop us, so we walked 1/4 mile uphill both ways to the nearest Apu-Mart and got some propane, and a burrito.

We weighed our rice and began to cook it along with 5.5 gallons of water, folks, 5.5 gallons of water is NOT enough to cook 18 lbs of rice. Could barely even stir it. We did transfer it from my trusty ole turkey pot to my 25 gallon pot, but there was a small amount of scorching, and it may have ruined the entire batch. There is a very faint burnt taste to the rice, at this point, I don't care I'm doing this.

The rice finally cooked and we crushed the grain and added the rice mixture back into the bag. The bag is entirely too heavy to be lifted, along with the suction it seems to be creating. It's resting comfortably at 122F right now. We are about to scoop mash from the bag 1 gallon at a time with a container until the bag is light enough to lift, and I can tie the loop around it that I forgot to in the first place.

It's also really hot and humid outside, especially in my metal building that the AC went out in.....

 

[estricklin]

We are mashing, got the loop wrapped around the bag too.

 

[estricklin]

The bag wasn't nearly as hard to lift out as it was before. The amount of liquid kind of helped, and I used a ratchet strap. A come-a-long will be purchased as the next brewing equipment. I have the burner maxed out right now and am about to weight the meager 2.5 oz of hop blend.

 

[estricklin]

Got it boiled up, gravity is around 1.046 I believe, we also came up short on volume, well rather our efficiency wasn't good enough so that we could add as much top up water as we would have liked. Looks like we are going to end up with 22 gallons or so. Dunno how long it's going to take my 50 ft wort chiller to do the job.

 

[Iseneye]

Noice. The wet bag full of grain looks like Haggis.

 

[BowAholic]

WOW! I can't believe you didn't call for some extra help Eric... :rockin:

That is amazing!

 

[WI_Wino]

The bag wasn't nearly as hard to lift out as it was before. The amount of liquid kind of helped, and I used a ratchet strap. A come-a-long will be purchased as the next brewing equipment. I have the burner maxed out right now and am about to weight the meager 2.5 oz of hop blend.

I use a ratcheting pulley designed to hang deer for butchering to lift my biab bag. I would think that's a lot easier to use than a come along. Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LNKN972/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[estricklin]

WOW! I can't believe you didn't call for some extra help Eric... :rockin:

That is amazing!

I should have man, but we just now finished, hell ofa brew day.

I use a ratcheting pulley designed to hang deer for butchering to lift my biab bag. I would think that's a lot easier to use than a come along. Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LNKN972/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have a ratcheting pulley, and we tried that, although not quite as heavy duty as the one you linked to. I may consider it though before I invest in a come a long, but I KNOW a come a long will lift whatever I put under it, as far as brewing is concerned.

Starting gravity is 1.051, we ended up with 23 gallons. We endured heat, a storm later in the day, and countless setbacks. It took about 9 hours including aeration. We ended our brew day covered in sweat, water, grain dust and sticky rice goo. Our backs are sore and we were way too sober. On a positive note the wort has no burnt taste I'm happy to report.

Most importantly, I got a chance to hang out with my cousin and BS the day away brewing a batch of beer that was in all honestly way too big for our equipment, something we really needed was some time to hang out after burying my grandpa yesterday, the beer....we didn't need so much but got anyway.

1 fermenter will get 05, another 34/70, and 3 will be pitched with S-23. The fermenter with only 3 gallons will probably have some fruit added in a couple weeks, watermelon or pineapples are being considered.

Cheers everyone, thanks for the help!

 

[Paps]

Ok so we walked 1/4 mile uphill both ways to the nearest Apu-Mart and got some propane, and a burrito. .....

LOL..........uphill both ways:rockin:

 

[Mer-man]

Too late to nominate for "Real American Heroes"?

Good work!

 

[wilserbrewer]

Good job, congratulations! I'm sure next time it will be much easier with the lessons learned. If you find a way to cook a large quantity of rice, please let me know as I have also had it stick and scorch to the kettle bottom. While I like your idea of grinding the grain direct to the kettle, It looks like hard work from a ladder.

 

[Homercidal]

$99 at Harbor Freight.

 

[BowAholic]

Eric...what a way to break in a new brewshed!

I'll bet we can find an old chicken house winch for you if you want one...unless you decide to go all fancy smancy electric...

That's a hefty OG for your "Lite" beer!

I'm about to go bottle some Centennial Blonde...

 

[estricklin]

Too late to nominate for "Real American Heroes"?

Good work!

Haha. "Thank you Mr. 25 Gallon batch Brew in a Bag Bud Lite Clone makkkkkkkkerrrrrrrr".

Good job, congratulations! I'm sure next time it will be much easier with the lessons learned. If you find a way to cook a large quantity of rice, please let me know as I have also had it stick and scorch to the kettle bottom. While I like your idea of grinding the grain direct to the kettle, It looks like hard work from a ladder.

Yeah in the past I've just done 4 or 5 lbs, done it in the house with my old extract kettle, never had a problem. I think next time I am going to use a LOT more water, and not put the rice in until the water is boiling.

I don't usually need a ladder when I crush like that, but since I was grinding 40 lbs it was easier to use the ladder to dump the grain from the bag in while my cousin ran the drill.

$99 at Harbor Freight.

When I read your post it reminded me that I have a BRAND NEW ATV winch in my tool room! Runs on 12 volts but I bet I can find a way to power it while it's connected to the metal rafter in my shop! It already has cable and all on it too!

Eric...what a way to break in a new brewshed!

I'll bet we can find an old chicken house winch for you if you want one...unless you decide to go all fancy smancy electric...

That's a hefty OG for your "Lite" beer!

I'm about to go bottle some Centennial Blonde...

Yeah I know, anything past 1.045 is a "heavy" beer for me anyway, but I know some folks that don't brew anything UNDER 1.060 too!

 

[Magnus314]

That much grain with a decent efficiency would make 50+ gallons of American Light Lager with any decent (for a Light Lager) brewhouse efficiency and attenuation.

Remember they often end with a 1.000 or lower FG.

So a 1.030 - 1.036 SG is more than enough, especially if you add a bit of Amaylase to the ferment.

 

[estricklin]

Well i guess I forgot to mention to everyone that I had to pour out all 25 gallons of this beer. It had a very faint burnt taste from the scorched rice, I could not stomach it. Otherwise, it was fermented very clean and would have been awesome.

So I've had time to reflect on this and I think I have a solution for the rice. The starches in the rice gelitanize at something like 165F, so why boil the rice over direct heat at all? I'm going to do a small experiment in the house soon on the stove. I'm going to boil some water, turn the heat off and pour the rice into the 212 degree water, and let it sit. Check it every 15-20 mins and see if it will eventually "cook" like this. If this works the way I think it will, then about the time the water has finally made it down to 165 or so, would coincide with the time it takes to cook the rice, then the water would be at the perfect strike temperature. Having a larger volume of water would help it to cool slower. It really doesn't matter how long it takes for the rice to cook, (can't really over cook it for our purposes) as long as the water is still at or above strike temperature when it's done. Heck a person could go ahead and mix in a small amount of the malt when temps get down to 175 to get a head start on conversion too.

I will do my little test and post some results and times here for anyone who is interested. I'm hijacking my own thread, I may start a new one as well and post the results in both places.

 

[wilserbrewer]

In my experience cooking large amounts of rice, the heat of the boiling water will not be close to enough to cook it thoroughly.

I have found the key to cooking large batches of rice is to use a lot more water than typical, and heat slowly and stir. I would plan on a few hours at low heat stirring often with plenty of liquid in the pot, any excess liquid merely replaces strike water.

As you already found, high heat for large amounts of rice scorches terribly, just be very patient, may take hours of simmer. Stirring often is a good idea as well.

 

[estricklin]

So chances are it's just not going to ever cook before the temperature drops down below strike temp? This is exactly the reason I am going to tes ti before I try it on a large scale.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

In my experience cooking large amounts of rice, the heat of the boiling water will not be close to enough to cook it thoroughly.

I have found the key to cooking large batches of rice is to use a lot more water than typical, and heat slowly and stir. I would plan on a few hours at low heat stirring often with plenty of liquid in the pot, any excess liquid merely replaces strike water.

As you already found, high heat for large amounts of rice scorches terribly, just be very patient, may take hours of simmer. Stirring often is a good idea as well.

I agree, found this out the hard way, although I love lite beers made with rice it turns into a sticky paste and also and clogs a recirculating system every time. while trying to clear my false bottom I pushed down too hard and pushed rice through it and it landed on the element and cooked then gave the beer a bad taste."lesson learned"

 

[estricklin]

I agree, found this out the hard way, although I love lite beers made with rice it turns into a sticky paste and also and clogs a recirculating system every time. while trying to clear my false bottom I pushed down too hard and pushed rice through it and it landed on the element and cooked then gave the beer a bad taste."lesson learned"

That pretty much answers another question I had. I am planning to build an all electric system and was wondering how well recirculating would work with all that rice.

 

[wilserbrewer]

You could always use more rice hulls, or just ask AB how they do it lol

 

[estricklin]

Funny you mention that, I've been trying for a couple of years to figure that very thing out. I've googled, looked in some books, and of coarse took the tour of the St. Louis facility and have yet to find out.