A modest proposal, in support of our friend...

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the_bird

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Friends,

In solidarity behind our good friend BrewPastor's apparent challenges (please read https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=34747 for background), a modest proposal:

Given the easy availablity of gluten-free yeast and sorghum syrup from Northern Brewer, I propose that we each develop our own gluten-free recipes, to brew and to share, with Tom and with the wide community of gluton-challenged beer lovers. When they're ready, we'll all send a couple bottles of our creations to Tom. Many of us have friends and comrades who face similar challenges (imagine - a life without BEER!)

We'll all have to do a LOT of learning about how to re-create some of those same flavors we all know and love. I think this will be a great experience for all of us.

What say you? Who's in?
 
Im down, im always up for a new challenge, not sure how soon I can get to it, I would need to do some research.
 
I think that's a good idea. I'm gonna look into it. Maybe brew like a half batch or something. I figure it will be a little bit of trial and error before we get it right on, or at least until we make one worthy of sending to somebody.
 
Well, we can help outselves with the research.

Here's a question, for example. Does roasted barley still contain gluten, or does the roasting process destroy it? Where can we source some raw gluten, so maybe we can roast it ourselves (I'm thinking along the lines of a GF stout).

We can help each other out, and hopefully in the process, do some good for our friend and for the community of gluton-intolerant beer lovers in general.
 
I am down I love a new challenge and it will benefit more than just my lazy a$$. Like the others said it is time to start doing some research. Is this going to be the Q&A thread or, should we start a new "Gluten Free Only" thread? Basically somewhere we all can share info and test results.

Cheers
 
the_bird said:
Well, we can help outselves with the research.

Here's a question, for example. Does roasted barley still contain gluten, or does the roasting process destroy it? Where can we source some raw gluten, so maybe we can roast it ourselves (I'm thinking along the lines of a GF stout).

We can help each other out, and hopefully in the process, do some good for our friend and for the community of gluton-intolerant beer lovers in general.

A quick google search seems to indicate that roasted barley does contain gluten. And I think you meant to source raw barley...

I'm wholeheartedly up for the challenge. The one gluten-free beer I've tried was terrible - I'm convinced I could make something better. I think the secret lies in mouth-feel and hops. Count me in.

kvh
 
Err.... actually, meant "raw sorghum"... ;)

And let's keep the thread here for now; if it needs to be split out at a later time, it's easy enough for me to do.
 
I"m in on this. I can't brew this weekend, maybe next I need to do some research anyway as we all do. My first question if anybody knows if not maybe I'll find the answer in my research. Why do you have to use a special yeast? I always thought it was the grains that contained the glutens not the yeast. Anyway, hopefully someone will make a gluten free beer that is as good as the beers we all make normally.
 
joshpooh said:
I"m in on this. I can't brew this weekend, maybe next I need to do some research anyway as we all do. My first question if anybody knows if not maybe I'll find the answer in my research. Why do you have to use a special yeast? I always thought it was the grains that contained the glutens not the yeast. Anyway, hopefully someone will make a gluten free beer that is as good as the beers we all make normally.

It's not the yeast strain specifically, it is the starter material in the yeast smack pack/vial. I would think that any dry yeast would work but still need to look up that before i confirm or deny it. that is why Wyeast is making Gluten Free yeast smack packs now.

Cheers
 
This is just an FYI so that it's covered.

If you are going to make a gluten-free beer and give to an allergic person to try - make sure you do not use any of the utensils for your barley beer in the preparation of the gluten free beer. Cross contamination is a major issue depending on the severity of their condition. Boil kettles and whatnot that can be cleaned thoroughly aren't as big an issue but the grain mill specifically should NOT be dual-use. Ideally you would not have any dual-use equipment.

I have a friend with a moderately severe allergy to gluten who wants me to make her beer but I just can't afford all the extra gear. Too bad, would be quite a challenge as you all have mentioned.
 
Some information that might be useful. Gluten is in a number of grains, including wheat, barley, rye and oats. There is debate about oats because the gluten in oats is different and different people react differently to it.

I am intending to research in such a way as to avoid gluten altogether. Briess makes two extracts that can be used. Both are sorghum extracts, one ferments a bit drier, the other sweeter. I hear it is available in 5 gallon buckets but have not yet found a source for that volume.

The trick seems to be in getting the crystal, toast and roast flavors. There are some articles about malting and roasting millet and sorghum, which is probably a path I will have to go down. But I wonder if there are not some other sources as well. I imagine recipes will have a dash of this and a bit of that in them.

Toasted rice comes to mind as does toasted sesame seeds.

Caramelized sugar, particularly in the darker range might provide some unfermentable sweetness.

I wonder also about using sweet potatoes that are baked long and hot (450)so that their sugars are REALLY caramized.

There is a dried, smoked corn around here called chicos that might prove useful.

Oak will be useful, particularly for the vanillans and tannins.

Coffee and cocoa can give some character and color to stouts and porters. I have to have my RIS!

I can imagine creating the espresso flavors of roast barley by roasting/burning some millet.

Small amounts of molasses and other exotic sugars could add complexity.

As you can see, I am trying to imagine sources for the building block flavors we associate with our beer styles. I am concerned about body and residual sweetness. It seems like one should avoid too many sugars because once they ferment you don't have anything left and I don't want cider. Toward that end it is hard to imagine what somethings will taste like once the sugars are fermented out. Brown sugar for example is just sugar with molasses, so once you ferment it you simply are left with molasses flavors. But how do you create something like a porter or a stout that have that big, thick mothfeel? Where does the body come from?

Well, I can see I will be doing a lot of little batches.

I think I will use the "one thing at a time" approach. Start with just extract and hops, see what it is like and add from there in controlled batches. Figure out what my building blocks are and take it from there.
 
In regards to the crystal sweetness you mentioned you were looking for, why not remove a small bit of wort and boil it down to a syrup? Wouldn't that impart the crystal-like sweetness? That should be a good place to start I think...
 
the_bird said:
Somebody in another thread mentioned using malto-dextrine in a gluten-free recipe. That can't be right, is it?

Yes here is a list of OK stuff

# Ascorbic Acid
# Belgian Candy Sugar
# Malto-dextrin (recently found to be produced from corn, NOT barley)
# Calcium Chloride
# Calcium Phosphate
# Citric Acid
# Corn Sweetener
# Dextrose
# Fructose
# Invert Sugar
# Lactic Acid
# Lactose
# Sucrose
# Vanilla

* Amaranth
* Buckwheat
* Corn
* Flax
* Maize
* Millet
* Quinoa
* Ragi
* Rape
* Rice
* Sesame
* Sunflower
* Sorghum
* Soybean
* Teff
* Wild Rice
 
the_bird said:
Somebody in another thread mentioned using malto-dextrine in a gluten-free recipe. That can't be right, is it?

I was urprised at this too and still want to check it out, but I read the same article and it appears that malto-dextrine is OK. :ban:
 
This is awesome to see you guys are up for this challenge :rockin:
In about a month I'm going to try a GF pumpkin ale side by side with a regular pumpkin ale. I've already put together a recipe that should be pretty good. I'm hoping that the pumpkin will add the ever elusive mouthfeel to the GF version. I will let you know how it turns out.
 
Hell, I will throw my hat in the ring. Gotta brew up 2 more batches before I can start on this one, but I'm game. Since I don't have a mill, mine will have a little bit of barley dust in it from the LHBS grain mill, but that shouldn't change the flavor any. Time to crack open the books and start studying.
 
Found a few starter recipe's as well as simple instructions to help get everyone going.

(not my writing, the link is to the original brewer)


Category: 14. Gluten Free Beer
Style: Inspired by Belgian Wit
Recipe Name: Tropical White
Brewer's Name: Robert Hinterding
Brewing Method: Mash including decoction
Starting Gravity: 1.049
Ending Gravity: 1.010
Alcohol (w/w%): 5.2
Bitterness (IBU): 20
Colour (SRM): Very pale
Specification Comments: Second attempt at a gluten free beer like a Belgian Wit.
I was a bit short of malt, so added some dextrose, also short of Hallertau hops, so added some Tettnanger. It all worked out very well.


Size of Batch: 13 litres
Extract Efficiency: 84%
Fermentables: 3.0 kg Pale sorghum malt
0.2 kg dextrose (corn based)
Hop Additions: 18 g Hallertauer (2.9%) 60 minutes boil,
6 g Tettnanger (4.9%) 60 minutes boil (ran out of Hallertauer)
Wort Preparation: Water is treated with gypsum to 150ppm.
Add 6 ltr water at 40C to crushed malt to give temp of 35C, rest for 20 mins.
Add phosphoric acid to bring the pH down to 5.1.
Add 3 ltr hot water to bring the temp to 50C, rest for 30 mins.
Allow the wort to settle for 20 mins.
Carefully remove the clear liquid from the top of the grist and put to one side (thin wort).
Add 4 ltr hot water to grist, and bring to boil, boil for 20 mins, stirring to stop if from burning.
Remove thick wort from heat and cool it to about 65°C.
Add thin wort to thick wort, mix together well, bring temp to 63°C.
Maintain 63°C for two hours, after one hour use iodine test to test for conversion of starch to sugars, repeat test every half hour. Conversion should be complete in one and one half hours.
Add rice hulls (15% of weight of grain)
Bring temp to 70°C, rest for 20 mins, then sparge.
Boiling and Cooling: Boil 90 mins.
10 grams dried orange peel, 30 min before end.
¼ tablet Irish moss, 15 min before end.
15 grams crushed corriander, 5 min before end.
Cool to 20°C
Other additions:
Yeast Information: Safale K-97 German Ale yeast
Fermentation Details: Ferment at 18-20°C for 7 days.
Other Brewing Information: The pH and the calcium levels are important to protect and get the most out of the enzymes. Calcium helps to protect the enzymes, and the amylase enzymes work better at a lower pH.
Competition Results: Not entered. It was brewed so it could be sampled at a Coeliac Society health forum. It was very well received, and got very good comments from non-coeliacs as well.



Aussie Pale Ale
Category: 14. Gluten Free Beer
Style: Inspired by Australian Pale Ale. First brew using buckwheat biscuit malt and Pride of Ringwood hops.
Recipe Name: Aussie Pale
Brewer's Name: Robert Hinterding
Brewing Method: Mash including decoction
Starting Gravity: 1.050
Ending Gravity: 1.013
Alcohol (w/w%): 4.9
Bitterness (IBU): 30
Colour (SRM): Pale
Specification Comments: First attempt at making something like an Australian Pale Ale. The result is not too bad. The colour is a bit light. Recipe has been adjusted to remove some processing problems.
Size of Batch: 13 litres
Extract Efficiency: 88%
Fermentables: 3.0 kg Pale sorghum malt
0.4 kg Buckwheat biscuit malt.
Hop Additions: 12 g Pride of Ringwood (10%) 60 minutes boil.
Wort Preparation: Water is treated with gypsum to 150ppm.
Add 6 ltr water at 40C to crushed malt to give temp of 35C, rest for 20 mins.
Add phosphoric acid to bring the pH down to 5.1.
Add 3 ltr hot water to bring the temp to 50C, rest for 30 mins.
Allow the wort to settle for 20 mins.
Carefully remove the clear liquid from the top of the grist and put to one side (thin wort).
Add 4 ltr hot water to grist, and bring to boil, boil for 20 mins, stirring to stop if from burning.
Remove thick wort from heat and cool it to about 65°C.
Add thin wort to thick wort, mix together well, bring temp to 63°C.
Maintain 63°C for two hours, after one hour use iodine test to test for conversion of starch to sugars, repeat test every half hour. Conversion should be complete in one and one half hours.
Add rice hulls (15% of weight of grain)
Bring temp to 70°C, rest for 20 mins, then sparge.
Boiling and Cooling: Boil 90 mins.
¼ tablet Irish moss, 15 min before end.
Cool to 20°C
Other additions:
Yeast Information: Safale S-04 English Ale yeast
Fermentation Details: Ferment at 18-20°C for 7 days.
Other Brewing Information: The pH and the calcium levels are important to protect and get the most out of the enzymes. Calcium helps to protect the enzymes, and the amylase enzymes work better at a lower pH.
Previous version using Amber Buckwheat malt had better colour.
Competition Results: Not entered.



Aztec Ale
Category: 14. Gluten Free Beer
Style: Purely experimental batch to see what taste and colour puffed amaranth grain will add. So the basic brew is light like a Koelsch.
Recipe Name: Aztec Ale
Brewer's Name: Robert Hinterding
Brewing Method: Mash including decoction
Starting Gravity: 1.041
Ending Gravity: 1.011
Alcohol (w/w%): 3.9
Bitterness (IBU): 26
Colour (SRM): Quite Pale (paler than expected)
Specification Comments: The idea was to brew a light brew like a koelsch to see what contribution puffed amaranth would make when used as an adjunct.
Size of Batch: 13 litres
Extract Efficiency: 89%
Fermentables: 2.27 kg Pale sorghum malt
0.3 kg puffed Amaranth grain.
Hop Additions: 15 grams Tettnanger (4.5%), 60 min boil.
15 grams Tettnanger (4.5%), 30 min boil.
5 gram Hallertau (2.9%), 10 min boil.
Wort Preparation: Water is treated with gypsum to 150ppm.
Add 5 ltr water at 40C to crushed malt to give temp of 35C, rest for 20 mins.
Add phosphoric acid to bring the pH down to 5.1.
Add 2 ltr hot water to bring the temp to 50C, rest for 30 mins.
Allow the wort to settle for 20 mins.
Carefully remove the clear liquid from the top of the grist and put to one side (thin wort).
Add 4 ltr hot water to grist, and bring to boil, boil for 20 mins, stirring to stop if from burning.
Remove thick wort from heat and cool it to about 65°C.
Add thin wort to thick wort, mix together well, bring temp to 63°C.
Maintain 63°C for two hours, after one hour use iodine test to test for conversion of starch to sugars, repeat test every half hour. Conversion should be complete in one and one half hours.
Add rice hulls (15% of weight of grain)
Bring temp to 70°C, rest for 20 mins, then sparge.
Boiling and Cooling: Boil 90 mins.
¼ tablet Irish moss, 15 min before end.
Cool to 20°C
Other additions:
Yeast Information: Safale S-04 English Ale yeast
Fermentation Details: Ferment at 18-20°C for 8 days.
Other Brewing Information: The pH and the calcium levels are important to protect and get the most out of the enzymes. Calcium helps to protect the enzymes, and the amylase enzymes work better at a lower pH.
Competition Results: Not entered. The contribution of the Amaranth was much less than I expected, it did not add much colour or taste. This made a very nice beer. It did not have the sourness that sorghum beers usually have, and after conditioning resulted in a clear smooth beer that goes down very well.


http://www.sillyyak.com.au/gfb/gfrecip.html
 
wop31 said:
It's not the yeast strain specifically, it is the starter material in the yeast smack pack/vial. I would think that any dry yeast would work but still need to look up that before i confirm or deny it. that is why Wyeast is making Gluten Free yeast smack packs now.

Cheers

So in liquid yeast the liquid in the vial is barley based and has gluten? I never thought about the starter, I wonder if you used white labs yeast, but used the sorghum extract to make your starter or even did a real small mash of something gluten free to make your starter. I'll probably end up using the wyeast gluten free smack pack anyway, but all these questions make me curious.
 
I have wondered about yeast starters and how significant an effect building a starter out of either a tube of WL or a non-smacked WY would be in terms of gluten. I know that the gluten free is cultured from the start without gluten, but how much carry over is there going to be? We are talking less then an ounce of liquid in an entire batch of beer after-all.

Gluten is a toxin to those who are intolerant to it, but it is everywhere in the food world. If you fry some fries in the same oil you cook a fish patty you are getting contamination. Most Soy Sauce has a degree of wheat, and on it goes. My mom has become very good at reading ingredient labels and questioning waiters. But my point is that gluten is all over the place and cross contamination happens. So at what level is it a concern? If there wasn't the gluten free yeast I would never have thought twice about making a gluten free starter out of a tube og WL yeast.
 
I avoid the yeast issue all together by using only dry yeast in my GF beers.

Just a side note about gluten being everywhere - the #1 ingredient that you need to watch out for is "Food Starch Modified." Unless it says "(corn)" right after it, you have no idea where that starch came from and it must be avoided. The tricky part is that 90% (I'm guessing at this number) of packaged foods have "Food Starch Modified" in the ingredient list. Everything from sour cream to cans of chili beans . . . let's just say that shoping gluten free takes a lot longer than normal shoping.
 
Drunkensatyr said:
Found a few starter recipe's as well as simple instructions to help get everyone going.

These recipes are awesome, the only problem is that I don't know any place that sells malted sorghum or buckwheat. If I had access to these ingredients I would be much farther along in my experiments.
 
For anyone considering home-malting sorghum, just found this here: http://www.fao.org/docrep/T0818e/T0818E09.htm

Malting involves germinating grain and allowing it to sprout. Typically the grain is soaked for 16 to 24 hours, which allows it to absorb sufficient moisture for germination and for sprouts to appear. However, germinated sorghum rootless and sprouts contain very large amounts of dhurrin, a cyanogenic glucoside, which on hydrolysis produces a potent toxin variously known as prussic acid, hydrocyanic acid (HCN) and cyanide (Panasiuk and Bills, 1984). The fresh shoots and rootless of germinated sorghum and their extracts must therefore never be consumed, either by people or by animals, except in very small quantities (e.g. when the germinated grain is used just as a source of enzymes). Dada and Dendy ( 1988) showed that the removal of shoots and roots and subsequent processing reduced the HCN content by more than 90 percent.

Malted sorghum has traditionally been used in several countries in Africa, but always after careful removal of the toxic parts. Hullu-murr is an important traditional food prepared from malted sorghum in the Sudan ( Bureng, Badi and Monawar, 1987). Alcoholic beverages and dumplings are prepared in Kenya from germinated sorghum and millet.
 
Yeah, I'd much rather someone else do the malting for me. With all the commercial sorghum beers becoming available now, obviously someone is malting the grain for these breweries. They just need to start selling to the retail brew shops.
 
wilsonwj said:
http://www.trueharvest.com/product_info.php/products_id/1505

You can get grain from this site if it is worth roasting your own. I will try to and post results when I next brew.
It appears that you'll need to do more than just roast the grain from that site. It is not malted, so you may not get much enzymatic activity in the mash unless you malt it yourself, then roast it.
 
I saw some malted millet flour at the "health food" store yesterday. Once the new kegger is done, I might buy some and experiment with toasting & roasting. I know browning flour is tricky, but since it would be a specialty grain substitute, not much would be needed.
 
This sounds like a very worthy experiment. I will do some research, and some test batches, and hopefully have something to send out to BP in a couple months.

We've got your back Brewpastor.
 
BP-

Ive got a couple questions regarding your tolerance:

Can I use my mill to crush the grains? There was mention earlier that dust from the rollers could lead to "contamination". Would blowing the rollers off with an air compressor be good enough?

Also as far as yeast goes, would Nottingham work, or is it necessary to get the GF yeast?

What is the final word on Malto-Dextrine?

Thats all ... for now.
 
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