Bray's One Month Mead

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andrewmaixner said:
I think that on his web site, Bray says that 72B yeast also works well with this nutrient schedule? That should be very easy and cheep to get.
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Thank you! I must have missed that somehow. I will have to try 72b for my next one since I already have the CBC-1. I started a cider with it a couple weeks ago.
 
No. With TOSNA, it’s a lot faster than it use to be, but still needs 2-3 months. So far, 1388 is still the fastest.

I’m currently testing WLP001 and WLP002. They fared very well in testing by Billy Beltz. They have a lower ABV tolerance (13%) so Gravity must be adjusted. Still liquid yeast though.
 
Ah, explains why I didn't see it. Thanks for the quick reply! Always looking forward to see what you publish next!
 
So if I wanted to dry hop a BOMM, I was thinking about just adding some hop pellets into a muslin grain bag and put it into the primary for the last few days until it finishes ( like 3-4 days ). Would it be bad to dry hop during the fermentation or should I rack to secondary and then dry hop for a few days? Not familiar with a lot of the science that goes on here, so just wanted to see if dry hopping while fermentation was happening would mess with the chemistry of the hops in a bad way.
 
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Try adding the hops during the last few days of fermentation. The only downside to that I can see is that the mead may turn out more cloudy than you like. Supposedly you will get a different and longer-lasting hop aroma than you would if you waited to dry hop after fermentation is complete. This is all just my opinion and conjecture, though I’ve never hopped a mead before, besides a braggot.
 
Hi mazers! New guy around these parts, and a new mazer as well. I've got my first batch of BOMM going through the final stages of fermentation and I've got a few questions I wasn't able to find out by reading the thread. I'm following Dr. Denard's recipe as closely as I can. The only thing I've done differently is I've been running everclear in the airlock from day one. I live in the Louisiana swamp and fruit flies are a thing when I'm *not* making mead, much less when I have 5 gallons of fermenting must on my kitchen table. First two days I stirred 2x/day to give the yeasties some extra O2. Based on my hydrometer readings they seem happy. Questions are bolded.

1. This mead is ridiculously carbonated while in the primary. I've been degassing daily with one of the degassing tools (the whip-on-a-stick deals from Northern Brewer) once per day until I hit 1.03. I've just been spinning the tool until I accumulate about 1-2" of foam atop the mead. Have I been doing this correctly? The mead is so carbonated it affects hydrometer readings, even after spinning. I *may* have five seconds to catch a reading before the carbonation bubbles start making the hydrometer rise. There is a +/- 10 point differential between hydrometer readings before/after degassing. When should I take the readings? Before or after degassing?

2. This stuff took off like a rocket from a 3-day starter! Temperatures 74-75*F. Dropped 15 points on the first day and averaged 10-12 per day ever since. It doesn't taste great though, even at 1.008. I suspect the carbonation is taking part in this, as it tasted better if I took a sample after degassing. It's not a vinegary taste at all it just tastes...fermented. And carbonated. :DLike rotten fruit..not horrible but not pleasant either. I do not suspect infection as the must in the carboy is the most beautiful, uniform shade of golden (honestly it looks like I have a jug of orange juice on my table) with no scummy bubbles, tendrils, or accumulation anywhere. I've been drowning everything in 1-step sanitizer. I think I've gone through three gallons (25oz sprayer) in a week. Is that taste normal for a very young mead? I remember Dr. Denard saying that the yeast needed time to "clean up."

3. Racking to secondary: after I get my 3 or 4 consistent hydrometer readings signifying that the yeast has given up the ghost, do I rack to secondary for 30 day aging and get it off of the lees or should i leave it in the primary on the lees for 30 days? I've seen both replies in this thread and I am unsure.

4. As shown in the Northern Brewer kit link above, I have a 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler primary and a 6.5 gallon glass carboy for a secondary. I am making the 5 gallon BOMM recipe. I saw that extra headspace in the primary is good because it helps prevent MEAs, but what about the secondary? Is the extra headspace going to cause problems/oxidation? It would be no problem to sterilize some glass marbles to fill up the void space in the carboy after racking to secondary, but I would have to go get them, hence me asking you all *before* I need them.


Thanks for all that you do, and thanks to @loveofrose for his wonderful recipe!:bravo:
 
I have something crazy happening. My meads have been taking a LONG time to ferment now that I have switched over to using the Fermaid O protocol. My latest batch has been fermenting nonstop for 2 months. It dries out, so I add more honey. And then I wait, check gravity, and add more honey. Well anyway, I have added additional honey 4 times now, and according to my estimates it should be nearly 20% ABV... which is impossible. And yet, the last time I added honey, it dropped 10 more points in 10 days. Estimated OG is 1.174 and current gravity is 1.022... crazy.

Anyway, it tastes pretty good (a bit dry for the ABV) with no major off flavors. I think it needs another month to condition before it'll be ready. These big meads seem to just take a bit more time. 3 months for the last couple. I had another batch finish around 17% ABV. I don't always like to sorbate/sulfite, I like to let the yeast do it's thing and reduce off-flavors.
 
Rougaroux said:
1. This mead is ridiculously carbonated while in the primary. I've been degassing daily with one of the degassing tools (the whip-on-a-stick deals from Northern Brewer) once per day until I hit 1.03. I've just been spinning the tool until I accumulate about 1-2" of foam atop the mead. Have I been doing this correctly? The mead is so carbonated it affects hydrometer readings, even after spinning. I *may* have five seconds to catch a reading before the carbonation bubbles start making the hydrometer rise. There is a +/- 10 point differential between hydrometer readings before/after degassing. When should I take the readings? Before or after degassing?

2. This stuff took off like a rocket from a 3-day starter! Temperatures 74-75*F. Dropped 15 points on the first day and averaged 10-12 per day ever since. It doesn't taste great though, even at 1.008. I suspect the carbonation is taking part in this, as it tasted better if I took a sample after degassing. It's not a vinegary taste at all it just tastes...fermented. And carbonated. :DLike rotten fruit..not horrible but not pleasant either. I do not suspect infection as the must in the carboy is the most beautiful, uniform shade of golden (honestly it looks like I have a jug of orange juice on my table) with no scummy bubbles, tendrils, or accumulation anywhere. I've been drowning everything in 1-step sanitizer. I think I've gone through three gallons (25oz sprayer) in a week. Is that taste normal for a very young mead? I remember Dr. Denard saying that the yeast needed time to "clean up."

3. Racking to secondary: after I get my 3 or 4 consistent hydrometer readings signifying that the yeast has given up the ghost, do I rack to secondary for 30 day aging and get it off of the lees or should i leave it in the primary on the lees for 30 days? I've seen both replies in this thread and I am unsure.

4. As shown in the Northern Brewer kit link above, I have a 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler primary and a 6.5 gallon glass carboy for a secondary. I am making the 5 gallon BOMM recipe. I saw that extra headspace in the primary is good because it helps prevent MEAs, but what about the secondary? Is the extra headspace going to cause problems/oxidation? It would be no problem to sterilize some glass marbles to fill up the void space in the carboy after racking to secondary, but I would have to go get them, hence me asking you all *before* I need them.
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1) I like to degass until I feel like MOST of the dissolved gas is out. It usually takes 3 times. Do your readings after degassing. Surely all those less dense bubbles hitting the hydrometer could affect your reading, don't you think?
2) It's hard to say what you're tasting. But I think a lot of people (some people?) don't like the taste of dry mead. But it's young so I wouldn't worry too much about it, yet. Also, why are you using so much sanitizer?
3) Are you planning on backsweetening, and if so, how are you planning on doing it? As to the question, I think either way is fine. I don't think the lees will ruin your mead in a month.
4) I think headspace causing problems is a little bit overrated. If you are bulk aging for months it's probably a bigger deal. I wouldn't sweat it too much. There will be a small amount of CO2 production in secondary, and you'll have an airlock on it.
 
Dan_K said:
1) I like to degass until I feel like MOST of the dissolved gas is out. It usually takes 3 times. Do your readings after degassing. Surely all those less dense bubbles hitting the hydrometer could affect your reading, don't you think?
2) It's hard to say what you're tasting. But I think a lot of people (some people?) don't like the taste of dry mead. But it's young so I wouldn't worry too much about it, yet. Also, why are you using so much sanitizer?
3) Are you planning on backsweetening, and if so, how are you planning on doing it? As to the question, I think either way is fine. I don't think the lees will ruin your mead in a month.
4) I think headspace causing problems is a little bit overrated. If you are bulk aging for months it's probably a bigger deal. I wouldn't sweat it too much. There will be a small amount of CO2 production in secondary, and you'll have an airlock on it.
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As to the degassing, yeah that's what I was thinking too. I've been basing my nutrient adds on the post-degas reading but I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. I'm using a lot of sanitizer because I am paranoid and the internet said "don't infect your mead." :)

I wasn't planning on backsweetening it, at least not this one. I prefer the drier meads. As to the headspace question, thanks. I'd planned on just racking to a 5 gallon bucket for cold crashing(and possible superkleer addition later) to save at least one shelf in my fridge for food. I couldn't do that with the 6 gallon carboy and for another $15 over the cost of 1 gallon's worth of marbles I can just buy a 5 gallon glass carboy.

I don't know how it tastes anymore. After it hit 1.004 (May 8th) I sealed it up and haven't touched it since. It's turning a beautiful red-orange color and I'm starting to get antsy. Monday makes 30 days since I've pitched the yeast so I'm considering racking to the secondary this weekend. I haven't had any airlock activity for two weeks but I fully intend to monitor SG daily for at least a week before I bottle. I don't like glass shrapnel as much as anyone else!

Referring to your nonstop fermenting issue, earlier in the thread loveofrose said that you can get the alcohol content stupid high with step feeding. The yeast will make alcohol as long as there's no sugar or the alcohol kills them off but with step feeding you can get their tolerance level higher than it would normally.

Use a different hydrometer too and see if you get a similar reading. When in doubt, confirm your instrumentation. :)
 
First of all, why is this thread still not sticky!?

And second, I have sourced Fermaid O in the UK :)

I will make a mead based on some nice polish clover honey using the TOSNA method using only fermaid O. My yeast of choice (based on Bray's recent dry yeast experiments) is the Lallemand CBC 1.

I just did a quick calculation on the total amount of fermaid O for a 1 gallon batch, and I came up with about 1.2g Fermaid O in total, assuming the Nitrogen demand factor is 1. This almost looks a bit little to me, can somebody more experienced confirm that this result sounds ok?

Cheers!
 
loveofrose said:
Not enough info. Plug in all your variables here: http://www.meadmakr.com/tosna-2-0/
Click to expand...

Ahhh, that helps!

Now I got this, which seems to be more reasonable:
Fermaid O Required: 5.36 g
Yeast Required: 3 g
Go Ferm Required: 3.75 g
One Third Sugar Break SG: 1.067

Bray, what is your personal favourite approach now for an Fermaid O only mead (no k)? The TOSNA protocol?

I will use the cbc 1 you tested in your recent dry yeast article. I assumed medium nitrogen demand, is that ok?

Oh, and a last one, I read here something about a ph buffer. A ph buffer is not mentioned in the TOSNA protocol. Am I missing something?

Edit: I could answer at least the last question by myself. K2CO3! But how do I calculate the amount necessary?
 
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Everything is ordered and should arrive at the end of this week. I was able to get some Lallemand abbey yeast for a bang for a buck (50p per pack), expired a few months ago.... but dry yeast is tough.

So I now got CBC1 and Lallemand Abbey and I have to choose 1 of those two. Maybe temperature might be a good criterium to choose? My mead will ferment uncontrolled around 20C, maybe even a bit warmer at times as we are having quite nice weather here in the UK at the moment (no, this is not a joke!)!

@loveofrose Would you prefer, of those two, one over the other for uncontrolled fermentation temperature around 20-22 c (68-72F)?

Edit: One more question (as always), would Potassium Bicarbonate also work instead of Potassium carbonate as the buffering agent?

Double edit: Last question solved:
"What is the difference between potassium carbonate and bicarbonate as it relates to adjusting pH in mead? The bottle I have is bicarbonate.
Potassium carbonate (K2CO3) has more buffering capacity and potassium per weight than potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). You can use the latter, but you may need to add more. I prefer K2CO3 to ensure adequate potassium levels.



Copied from Gotmead.com - Read More at:http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php/22964-BOMM-clairification-potassium-carbonate"
 
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Has anyone tried this but made a melomel or cyser? Also, is it possible to make the above recipe but use fermaid O instead of fermaid k and DAP?
 
DangerClose said:
Has anyone tried this but made a melomel or cyser? Also, is it possible to make the above recipe but use fermaid O instead of fermaid k and DAP?
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The most recent bomm version uses fermaid o and only one addition of fermaid k upfront and zero dap.

For the liquid yeast follow: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Liquid-yeast-SNA/

For dry yeast follow the TOSNA protocol and you might want to add 2g K2CO3 per gallon, but this is not 100% mandatory.

Dry choices: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/DryBOMMAromatic/
 
I've done long meads and JAO. This looks interesting enough to try it and not have a 2 yr wait!
 
Started my first TOSNA mead :)

1.2kg of reeeeeeally nice polish honey, very flavourful and just tastes perfect to me (unfortunately I cannot read the label and tell you what it exactly is, I was told, but I forgot, maybe it was clover) in 4l of water. 1.5g K2CO3 (lowered amount because of the buffering capacity of the Fermaid O), 5g CBC 1 Lallemand yeast with Go Ferm rehydrated. OG of 1.1. I might add more honey later, depending on the FG.

5.5g Fermaid O in four additions, first one tomorrow evening, last one on day 7 or 1/3 sugar break, whatever comes first... as CBC1 shgould be really fast, I will put the last addition in at day 5 without meassuring. 1/3 sugar break should be long gone by then.

:)
 
I'm still learning but it seems like daily gravity monitoring is the way to go.
With mead, sanitation takes a back seat to making sure the yeast are happy.

Most current protocols I read suggest degassing and aerating twice daily until the 1/3 sugar break.
https://www.meadmakr.com/meadmakr-guide/part-iii-the-basic-recipe/
It is important to degas your mead prior to adding the nutrients to avoid mead eruption accidents (MEAs). It is also helpful to siphon 1/2 cup of your must from the fermenter for dissolving the nutrients before adding them back to the mead.

Between the 24 hour mark and your last nutrient addition, degas and aerate your mead at least twice daily. Your last nutrient addition should occur at the 1/3 sugar break; that is, when one third of the total sugars you provided have been converted to alcohol, you no longer want to add nutrients or aerate your must (if your SG started at 1.120, the 1/3 break will be when your SG drops to 1.080 [dropped one third of 0.120]). At this point you would just degas (similar to aeration, but leave your fermenter capped).
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I'm thinking for 1-gal batches people add back the sample pulled for gravity reading. Either siphon or just pour a sample after degassing and then add it back after (use the same sample to dissolve nutrients if applicable). I'd be comfortable doing this.
It also might be possible to put the hydrometer directly into the carboy. At high gravity it won't sink very far.

What spoilage microbes are concerning?
CBC-1 is a killer strain, so other Sacc contaminants aren't a problem, and probably can't compete with your pitch regardless.
Brett is too slow growing to cause a problem. Racking removes nutrients so it can't grow long-term.
Alcohol should kill the other wild yeast genera.
LAB will similarly be nutrient starved and will be slow growing in the low pH range typical of fermenting mead, especially at low cell count and relatively low temperature.
Other bacteria should be killed/inhibited by the combination of alcohol and pH.

Not a mead expert, but just my 2 cents from a microbiological standpoint.
 
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RPh_Guy said:
I'm still learning but it seems like daily gravity monitoring is the way to go. With mead, sanitation takes a back seat to making sure the yeast are happy
...
Not a mead expert, but just my 2 cents from a microbiological standpoint.
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I'd agree, from my general experience and reading about mixed fermentations.
Even the articles about trying to make a sour or funky mead note that you pretty much have to intentionally take special steps/ingredients to do so.
 
RPh_Guy said:
I'm still learning but it seems like daily gravity monitoring is the way to go.
With mead, sanitation takes a back seat to making sure the yeast are happy.

Most current protocols I read suggest degassing and aerating twice daily until the 1/3 sugar break.
https://www.meadmakr.com/meadmakr-guide/part-iii-the-basic-recipe/


I'm thinking for 1-gal batches people add back the sample pulled for gravity reading. Either siphon or just pour a sample after degassing and then add it back after (use the same sample to dissolve nutrients if applicable). I'd be comfortable doing this.
It also might be possible to put the hydrometer directly into the carboy. At high gravity it won't sink very far.

What spoilage microbes are concerning?
CBC-1 is a killer strain, so other Sacc contaminants aren't a problem, and probably can't compete with your pitch regardless.
Brett is too slow growing to cause a problem. Racking removes nutrients so it can't grow long-term.
Alcohol should kill the other wild yeast genera.
LAB will similarly be nutrient starved and will be slow growing in the low pH range typical of fermenting mead, especially at low cell count and relatively low temperature.
Other bacteria should be killed/inhibited by the combination of alcohol and pH.

Not a mead expert, but just my 2 cents from a microbiological standpoint.
Click to expand...
Oh, I did not know that cbc 1 is a killer strain! I think you saved me from a bad batch of beer :D

I want to try mixing yeasts, and I have half a pack of cbc 1 left... Wanted to throw that into my next beer together with another yeast to aid flocculation.

Well.... Won't do that now anymore :D

I agree with the rest. Let's see, I degassed today the first time and already provoked a little air lock fountain, so I guess I will need to get some must out to solve the nutrients in anyway, to make sure the mead does not go full on volcano.

And if I take some out anyway, I can also make a measurement.
 
Miraculix said:
Oh, I did not know that cbc 1 is a killer strain! I think you saved me from a bad batch of beer :D
...
Click to expand...
You aren't the only one -- even the yeast labs don't yet tend to publish the K factors on their non-wine yeasts. I asked every lab at NHC2017 and none of their people knew if such a list even existed for beer yeasts (neither the marketing people nor the lab/biologists).
 
after 48 hours, 1/3 sugar break has been reached with an sg of 1.068. I just dumped in the remainder of the Fermaid O which made it 3.5 g.

I Calculated 5.5g in total, divided into 4 additions. Now that the 1/3 sugar break has been reached after 48hours, I only had 2 additions.


.....a bit improvised, but was my decision to combine the last three additions correct?

(for those who do math stuff and wonder how the hell I came up with 3.4g when calculating 5/4x3, I basically put a bit too much Fermaid O into the first addition)
 
The CBC 1 did chew it all down from 1.1 to 1.0 in less than 7 days. I am now step-feeding the yeast with honey till it gives up. 1.2kg of honey initially, then 50g on top, after one day around 1.005, again 20g of honey on top of it. Fermentation slowed down sgnificantly, I guess the yeast is fairly close to giving up. Let's see what the hydrometer says tomorrow!
 
My cbc1 tosna mead is going well. Started with an og of 1.1, hit 1.0 within 9 days or so and been step feeding honey since then. I fed it already half of the amount of honey that was initially in the mead, meaning it is as if I would have started with an og of 1.15. And it still keeps chewing the sugar. I am now theoretically at almost 20% abv, hopefully the yeast gives up soon!

I did not expect this from a yeast that was supposed to give up between 12 and 14%.
 
Step feeding and good SNAs always make the yeast blow past normal tolerances. Even 1388 will hit 20%! This is why I started adding all honey upfront. Yeast tend to stay around published tolerance if you do.

High ABV with be a bit hot from alcohol. I suggest aging on medium toast American oak for a few moths to mellow it out.
 
loveofrose said:
Step feeding and good SNAs always make the yeast blow past normal tolerances. Even 1388 will hit 20%! This is why I started adding all honey upfront. Yeast tend to stay around published tolerance if you do.

High ABV with be a bit hot from alcohol. I suggest aging on medium toast American oak for a few moths to mellow it out.
Click to expand...
Ok, good to know.

My initial plan was to get all the honey in upfront but I was too scared to end up with an overly sweet mead. Next time, I will try to hit it with an og for 14.5% abv from the start plus what I intend to stay as residual sweetness.

The oak is a good idea, I might do that! Somewhere I should have some chips flying around... What amount would you recommend for a medium type of oakiness in 5l mead?

Edit: yes it is a tad bit hot, but really not much, keeping in mind that it is already at 20%. I really like this easy going yeast!
 
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loveofrose said:
Thank you, thank you, thank you moderators for the sticky!
Click to expand...
I "reported" this thread and asked for stickyfying it, as I was very tired of searching for it, each time I wanted to ask something :D

... And on the side, this thread might also be the most important one in the mead forum...

Glad to see that it worked!

Thanks anonymous mod!
 
I just wanted to post an update here since this post was stickied.

Many things have changed since this post began. While this was the first method to make mead quickly, it is now not the only one. With the creation of GoFerm, Fermaid O and the Scott labs nutrient schedule (aka TOSNA), many yeast can be used to create fusel free meads directly out of the fermenter. I even created a Fermaid O protocol that is better than the original BOMM protocol here: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Liquid-yeast-SNA/

I still haven’t found anything faster than Wyeast 1388, but I tend to have a lot more patience now. I tend to use 1388 for experiments, then branch out to other yeast if the flavor profile calls for it. The experiments never end though! For the most up to date info see my website at https://denardbrewing.com

I would also encourage everyone to check out the historical mead series I’m doing here: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/category/historical-brews/ These meads are category defying and truly unique. Finding new and wonderful taste combinations is the adventure of our craft!

Keep experimenting!

Bray
 

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