Calcium and Chloride Discrepencies

[ScrewyBrewer]

I have entered and recorded 20-30% discrepancies among several popular water chemistry calculators when they report Calcium and Chloride ppm. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the same, or if there is a known reason why the discrepancies exist.

Using a base NE IPA recipe consisting of 21 pounds 2-Row 2L [US], 2 pounds Torrified Wheat 2L [US] mashed with 15 gallons of 100% RO water. To the RO water 7.5g gypsum, 13.5g calcium chloride, 1g Epsom salt and 1ml 88% lactic acid were added.

Brewers Friend, MpH Water Calculator v3, EZ watercalculator v3 and Kaiser water calculator all reported Calcium as 96ppm and Chloride as 115ppm. The outlier in the group was Bru'n Water reporting Calcium as 117ppm and Chloride as 152ppm. The resulting 20% difference in reported Calcium and 28% difference in Chloride levels seems significant and has me baffled.

 

[SanPancho]

brunwater have corr ct settings for your RO? Misplaced entry somewhere in your water profile?

The ratios dont match so it would seem you might have an addition that is unintended somewhere in the program?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As a first guess it looks as if you may have Bru'n Water set to anhydrous, whereas the others are all set to default to the more commonly found dihydrate form. ???

CaCl2 vs. CaCl2.2H2O

 

[ajdelange]

I'm sure that's it. As it is virtually impossible to know the amount of water of hydration in your CaCl2.nH2O (n = ?) most of us now use n = 0 (CaCl2) in our calculations and determine the amount of a solution to be added based on the specific gravity of the solution. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=501377

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

As a first guess it looks as if you may have Bru'n Water set to anhydrous, whereas the others are all set to default to the more commonly found dihydrate form. ???

CaCl vs. CaCl.2H2O

I have been using Bru'n Water version 118a, with the default settings shown below.
7.5g Gypsum (CaSO4 x 2H2O) as 117ppm
13.5g Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) as 152ppm

According to Brewers Friend it is using the more accepted CaCl.2H2O calculation, correct?

I didn't know there was an option to change between the two, or is that included only in version 4.2?

As far as the RO water settings, used across the calculators, pH was set to 7.0 and all other required fields were set to either 0.00 or 0.01.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm sure that's it. As it is virtually impossible to know the amount of water of hydration in you CaCl2.nH2O (n = ?) most of us now use n = 0 (CaCl2) in our calculations and determine the amount of a solution to be added based on the specific gravity of the solution. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=501377

Thank you AJ for pointing me to yet another interesting and informative post. I will enjoy reading through it today to come away with a better understanding of how the 2 approaches differ.

After double checking it appears that Bru'n Water is already using CaCl2 for the calcium chloride calculations were Brewers Friend and the others are using the more accepted CaCl.2H2O calculation.

 

[mabrungard]

Bru'n Water uses the 'safer' assumption of anhydrous calcium chloride which helps avoid overdosing your wort with those ions. While you can't count on the mineral to actually be anhydrous, you also can't count on it being in the dihydrate state. Therfore, brewers are better off with an anhydrous assumption.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The pay version of Bru'n Water allows one to select their form (state) of CaCl2 as either anhydrous or dihydrate. Perhaps the free version does not have this option.

I checked my last two bottles of CaCl2 upon first opening, and as I recall they were within about 5 or 6 percent of being anhydrous when freshly opened. For open containers things can go downhill rapidly from there though. I once had a bag of CaCl2 driveway salt pellets (ice dissolver) that was open and sitting in a plastic pail in my garage turn into purely liquid goo over the course of about a full year.

PS: My check method involved dissolving the two freshly opened bottles of CaCl2 into a carefully measured quantity of distilled water, letting it cool to room temperature, checking the solutions SG, and then lastly back-calculating for their original concentration.

So for freshly opened CaCl2, Bru'n Water's default to anhydrous does appear to be a safe bet. Whereas for a container that has been opened a few times, the dihydrate state may prove to be the better choice.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Bru'n Water uses the 'safer' assumption of anhydrous calcium chloride which helps avoid overdosing your wort with those ions. While you can't count on the mineral to actually be anhydrous, you also can't count on it being in the dihydrate state. Therfore, brewers are better off with an anhydrous assumption.

Thank you Martin for explaining the differences between anhydrous calcium chloride (CaCl2) and dihydrate calcium chloride (CaCl.2H2O) and the decision for Bru'n Water using the safer approach.

My interest in brewing water chemistry began 3 years ago and incredibly I continue to learn more about it every day. While I don't see myself, or an average homebrewer like myself, baking their LD Carlson calcium chloride at 400F on brewday, I do appreciate knowing there is a benefit in doing so for the purest.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

So for freshly opened CaCl2, Bru'n Water's default to anhydrous does appear to be a safe bet. Whereas for a container that has been opened a few times, the dihydrate state may prove to be the better choice.

I use about 2 ounces of LD Carlson calcium chloride per year to adjust my RO brewing water. On brewday I open the bottle, pour out as many grams as needed, then recap the bottle and put it back in the closet until the next brewday.

In 3 years time I never had an issue with it turning into a wet sticky puddle maybe because the bottle is stored in a closet inside my home where it's heated in winter and air conditioned in summer. Until this week, and thanks to this post, I never knew a difference existed for new versus older calcium chloride.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm guessing that it probably doesn't start turning into a liquid until it reaches somewhere around CaCl2.6H2O or higher.

Every time the container is opened it moves up the water absorption scale ladder a bit higher.

 

[ajdelange]

So for freshly opened CaCl2, Bru'n Water's default to anhydrous does appear to be a safe bet.

If you bought the anhyhdride.

Whereas for a container that has been opened a few times, the dihydrate state may prove to be the better choice.

The safest bet is to set your calculator for anhydride (pure CaCl2) and then find out how much CaCl2 there is in a solution you have made with whatever you have on hand which is, apparently, exactly what you do. That seems good practice to me.