Carbonation in the Canadian Alpine

[pkrahn]

Hi HBT,

I've gotten lots of useful information from these forums over the past winter as I've made batches of dark beer, light beer, red wine, white wine, blackberry wine, cider and mead... however I can't find a suitable answer to my big current dilemna so I thought I'd ask for some specific advice from, maybe some of you experts can shed some light.

So most of this stuff is being brewed for this event we do every year...

http://www.peppermillrecords.com/festival_2010
http://www.peppermillrecords.com/festival_report_2009

I thought this time I'd like to be able to give away beverages for free, and if I learned to brew I could afford to. And now that I have all these great brews sitting inside of carboys now I need to carbonate at least some of them.

The thing is, this event happens at 2200m up in a mountain basin. We'll be (gently) slinging the food and drink and instruments up there with a chopper. The music by the way is all acoustic, round a campfire. It's a lot of fun. And the food is delicious we have great cooks.

Even if the helicopter pilot was careful enough, we still couldn't carbonate naturally because just the drive up the logging road to get close to the mountain, that would really shake up the brews.

So force carbonating seems like the way to go. All I need is 3 or 4 cornelius kegs for the beers and one of the ciders and I'm set, right? Problem is, I can't find any corny kegs in the Pacific Northwest, I could order them but I'd be way over budget, with shipping and all. There's one place I found in the States that sells used ones but they don't even guarantee they won't need a bunch of maintenance. I have limited time and skills for that kind of thing.

That may still be my best option but there must be something else! Plastic pressure barrels sound like they don't hold enough pressure. Mini kegs would be similar, no? I need steel I assume.

My other apparent option is to carbonate on-site. It might be cool (pun intended) to break off chunks of the nearby glacier that feeds the lakes and fill a vessel with its ice and put PET bottles of beer inside. People could just grab one and quickly screw on the carbonation device and pressurize as desired?

I'm wondering how cold that beer would need to be in order for this to work smoothly? And what I would need to set it up?

In that case we'd have to keep filling the ice with bottles of beer and making sure people grabbed the colder ones.

That would mean I'd have to spend at least $200 on PET bottles, which people might also end up using as ashtrays, but hopefully not. Sounds like the cheapest option so far though. It would be great to pre-carbonate them but I just don't see how, in such challenging environment.

Also, does anyone know if the slightly higher elevation would make it easier or more difficult to inject CO2?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[kenche]

You should be fine to carbonate ahead of time. The beer will not need much time to settle. I have transported fully carbonated corny kegs to many camping trips, tapped the kegs within minutes of arriving and have never had issues with foaming.

It sounds like there is ice available at the location. I would recommend a jockey box for serving. These can often be rented, or you can easily construct one yourself. Have a search for 'cold plates' on ebay.

Cornie kegs are availble in vancouver at Dan's Homebrewing (beermaking.ca) and some Princess Auto locations.

 

[pkrahn]

thanks a lot for the vancouver tip, i might go that route.

as for settling, i'm speaking more of if i naturally carbonated the batch, then i'd need like a week i'm guessing. plus getting everybody to pour their beers properly might be quite the task.

but i think some way of carbonating them on the spot might be best, if it could be accomplished simply for the guests.

 

[kenche]

If you are planning to use cornie kegs, you will need CO2 to push the beer for serving. Since you will already have CO2, I would suggest that you do not naturally carbonate in the keg. Instead, consider force carbonating in the keg. That way there will not be any yeast sediment, and no need for waiting for anything to settle. When I bring beer camping, I transfer the beer to a secondary and add gelatin finings to completely clear the beer. I then transfer to the serving kegs and force carbonate. The beer is crystal clear with absolutely no sediment.

The primary concern with serving beer from a keg is temperature. It is essential that the beer coming out of the tap is as cold as it was when it was carbonated. CO2 comes out of suspension when the temperature of beer rises, and this will create excessive foaming and in many cases makes the beer unservable. The easiest way to do this outdoors is with a jockey box.

Whatever route you take, I strongly suggest to do a practice run with your planned setup. It will be much easier to come up with another plan a couple of weeks ahead of time than it would be 2000 m up a mountain.

 

[kenche]

oh, I forgot to mention that a jockey box if it is properly set up pours pretty easily, but you bring up a good point that it may prove challenging to some people.

However, I am sure that it will be easier and more intuitive than having people force carbonate their own beer.

If you have lots of time and patience, you could also consider kegging your beer in corny kegs and force carbonatingat home, then use a counter pressure bottle filler to fill 2 liter pet bottles. You then would just have to sling in a bunch of filled carbonated plastic bottles of beer, and cool them on site. A counter pressure bottle filler can be easily made. Check this link.

 

[pkrahn]

ah yes, i've read a bit about counter-pressure filling, that might be the ticket. as flying up the CO2 tank and corny kegs would cost money just because of the extra weight. PET bottles cost money too though but might be worth it for ease of use.

also... could i then just buy one corny keg for now, use it to fill up the bottles, and then go through all four or five batches that way?

 

[pkrahn]

also... if i'm carbonating a couple of days before it's flown up for the festival, do i need to bother with PET bottles at all? can i just use clear plastic if there's no storage?

 

[kenche]

You could definitely do it with one keg, but to do 4 or 5 batches could take some time, as you need to completely chill the beer before you carbonate it. If you had access to a walk-in cooler, that would help, as you could cool all the carbouys at once. You would then transfer to the keg, force carbonate at 30 psi and shake for a few minutes, one at a time. You would be done in a couple of hours. Otherwise the process would be:

- transfer first finished beer to keg
- cool beer (8 hours/overnight??)
- force carbonate by applying 30 psi of CO2 and shake vigourously. do this until desired level of carbonation.
- fill 2 litre bottles with counter pressure bottle filler
- transfer second finshed beer to keg
- cool (8 hours/overnight??) beer, etc.

You would probably still want to add some finings to the beer before transfering to the kegs. This will help ensure there is no sediment in the bottles. It can also improve the presentation factor of the brew as it will look as cleas as a commercial beer. That helps alleviate any negative impressions some people may have about homebrew. Gelatin works great, but it may cause some problems for vegan/vegetarians. There are other options. I think that I have heard that agar agar works.

If you transferred to the bottles a week or two before the trip, any soda bottle would do the trick.

 

[pkrahn]

thanks so much guys this is all very solid advice.

i'm going to try this counter pressure filling into plastic pop bottles with classy labels. we'll still chill it in glacier ice as that would be functional and pretty neat.

so, this sediment... you're talking about some remaining dead yeast matter? is clearing in this case more cosmetic or would it enhance the flavour? because i personally don't get so concerned about the transparency of by beer, but then again most people may not be used to having some amount of haziness.

 

[pkrahn]

also, we have an empty deep freeze so that could possibly fit 3 carboys at once. that wouldn't take 8 hours then though would it?

 

[kenche]

I am not really sure how long it will take to cool the beer. I always leave mine overnight before force carbing. I would be leary of using the deep freezer to cool your beer unless you have a temperature controller. I would be concerned that the beer would begin to freeze along the outside before it was cooled enough.

The issue with the small amount of sediment is aesthetic. However, a crystal clear beer can make a positive impression upon people which can enhance their enjoyment of it. I only use finings when I am serving a beer publicly, and I do it to make the beer as presentable as I can. However, there is nothing wrong with a bit of haze in a beer. Many micro-brewed beers are a bit hazy.

Also, it just occurred to me that if you are using clear coloured soda bottles you will have to keep them out of the sunlight. When beer is exposed to sunlight, the hops will react and produce a skunky flavour. This happens within minutes of exposure to the sun. Brown plastic bottles will prevent this, but they are not common. Green plastic bottles will be better than clear, and are a little more common.

 

[beeton]

If you keg, and carbonate, at a lower altitude than you drink, the co2 will come out of suspension quicker, and your beer will become flat sooner.
Whether there is enough of an elevation difference in your case to be noticeable, perhaps you could report back to us.
Dave.

 

[pkrahn]

interesting about elevation flattening a beer quicker, i'll definitely report back.

 

[pkrahn]

the guy at dan's homebrewing says you can fill bottles of carbonated beer straight out of the keg, he doesn't know about this counter-pressure system of filling them... is this a new type of keg or is his method not the same?

 

[kenche]

Filling straight from the keg will introduce oxygen into the beer. The effects are not usually noticed if consumed right away. However, many feel that you should not use this method if the beer will not be consumed within 24 hours.

Counter pressure filling protects the beer with a layer of CO2. It is really the best way that I know of to get a beer from a keg to a bottle.

Dan's is a great shop, but I don't go there for advice.

 

[pkrahn]

he says it's good for a few days but i think i'll take your advice since it doesn't sound that complicated, as a few of the batches might be a week till consumed. thanks again.