Champagne yeast in beer

[Bluelinebrewer]

Hopefully someone will be able to offer me some advice here. I'm making a grape ale and I'm wanting to use champagne yeast. Will 2 (5g) packets of dry champagne yeast be enough for a 1.054 beer?

 

[RoughandReadyRanch]

Look at the yeast cell count on the packet and then plug it in to yeast per liter per plato formula or Mr Malty and you will have your answer. I have bee toying with the thought of using some wine yeasts in ales for a while now. You should be fine with only one packet as most wines/champagne are in the 10-13% range and you are talking half that.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Look at the yeast cell count on the packet and then plug it in to yeast per liter per plato formula or Mr Malty and you will have your answer. I have bee toying with the thought of using some wine yeasts in ales for a while now. You should be fine with only one packet as most wines/champagne are in the 10-13% range and you are talking half that.

Thanks for the help! Looks like 1 packet will be enough.

 

[danmaddux]

Since we are on the subject, I have a question. Does using champagne yeast do anything different to a batch of regular beer?

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Well... I'm about to find out! lol. The beer I made has Muscat Grape Juice in it, and uses Nelson Sauvin hops. It's a clone recipe from a local brewery.

 

[stpug]

Wine yeast is generally not adapted to eating the complex malt sugars (i.e. beer sugars). While there are some simple sugars created in the mashing process (and extract too, I presume) and you will be providing some simple sugars from the grape juice, the yeast will likely stop eating once the simple sugars have been consumed leaving you with most of the original wort/extract sugars remaining. This is likely not the result you're hoping for. I think this might be a case where two yeast would work best. Start with the wine yeast and allow them to ferment for 1 day and then add a rehydrated dry brewers yeast to finish up the malt sugars. At least that's my opinion.

 

[Calder]

Wine yeast is generally not adapted to eating the complex malt sugars (i.e. beer sugars). While there are some simple sugars created in the mashing process (and extract too, I presume) and you will be providing some simple sugars from the grape juice, the yeast will likely stop eating once the simple sugars have been consumed leaving you with most of the original wort/extract sugars remaining. This is likely not the result you're hoping for.

I have not tried it, but I've heard a lot of people say this. Will be interested to hear how this turns out.

I think this might be a case where two yeast would work best. Start with the wine yeast and allow them to ferment for 1 day and then add a rehydrated dry brewers yeast to finish up the malt sugars. At least that's my opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a practical solution. Most wine yeasts are 'killer' yeasts; that is, they prevent regular brewers yeasts from reproducing, so you would really need to pitch high to get the job done.

 

[stpug]

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a practical solution. Most wine yeasts are 'killer' yeasts; that is, they prevent regular brewers yeasts from reproducing, so you would really need to pitch high to get the job done.

Very good point and one that I overlooked in my previous reply, however it does not make pitching multiple strain impractical. It just means you need to pick your wine yeast thoughtfully. Referring to lallemands yeast chart and paying attention to the 'Competitive Factor' column you would simply choose a 'sensitive' or 'neutral' yeast strain because the 'active' strains are the strains that release the killer toxin. Lalvin 71B is a sensitive yeast meaning is does not produce the toxin AND is sensitive to it; is a yeast that many LHBS carry; and is highly rated for rose, red, and even white wine grapes. Coupled with the right ale yeast could produce interesting results. You could go clean ale ester with high attenuation for a dry finished product, or a little more esters with a little less attenuation to leave some sweetness behind. This sounds like a fun process to try out.

Chart link: http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_chart.php

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Well, I pitched 1 packet of champagne yeast. We'll see how it goes. I emailed the brewery, whose beer I'm attempting to clone, and asked them about using only the champagne yeast. One of the brewers there emailed me back and stated that the champagne yeast is the ONLY yeast they use on this specific beer. So, apparently it works for them. I'll keep everyone updated with the progress.

 

[Denny]

Since we are on the subject, I have a question. Does using champagne yeast do anything different to a batch of regular beer?

Yes. It makes it taste like not very good beer.

 

[danmaddux]

Yes. It makes it taste like not very good beer.

Thanks Denny. Thats what I was looking for. Lol.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Yes. It makes it taste like not very good beer.

Ahhh, c'mon Denny! Have you ever done this? (I'm absolutely not trying to sound like an ass, just curious if you have.) Boulevard makes a Grape Nelson Ale, its a tasting room beer. Its an amazing beer! The recipe that I'm using is straight from one of the brewers there, and he says all they use is champagne yeast. It smells God awfully sulfury right now, but I did take a sample, and its well on its way to tasting great!

 

[d3track]

Ahhh, c'mon Denny! Have you ever done this? (I'm absolutely not trying to sound like an ass, just curious if you have.) Boulevard makes a Grape Nelson Ale, its a tasting room beer. Its an amazing beer! The recipe that I'm using is straight from one of the brewers there, and he says all they use is champagne yeast. It smells God awfully sulfury right now, but I did take a sample, and its well on its way to tasting great!

I wonder if the fruit juice makes the difference? I'm spitballing, but I'm guessing just barley wort would leave a very different flavor profile.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

I wonder if the fruit juice makes the difference? I'm spitballing, but I'm guessing just barley wort would leave a very different flavor profile.

I'm hoping so! Like I said, the recipe came straight from the brewery, so, it should be pretty close!

 

[Denny]

Ahhh, c'mon Denny! Have you ever done this? (I'm absolutely not trying to sound like an ass, just curious if you have.) Boulevard makes a Grape Nelson Ale, its a tasting room beer. Its an amazing beer! The recipe that I'm using is straight from one of the brewers there, and he says all they use is champagne yeast. It smells God awfully sulfury right now, but I did take a sample, and its well on its way to tasting great!

Yes, I try to always speak from experience or make it clear when I'm not. Back in the "old day" the "common knowledge" was to use champagne yeast for high gravity beers. I tried it twice with an Am. BW recipe and got poor performance and flavor. When I tried the same recipe with WY105, I won a blue ribbon at rthe state fair.

 

[Denny]

I'm hoping so! Like I said, the recipe came straight from the brewery, so, it should be pretty close!

Yeah, the juice could change things dramatically. At least you're using a tried and true recipe.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Couple things I've noticed so far. 1. Champagne yeast, at least the one I'm using, is very sulfury when fermenting. 2. There is very little krausen produced.

I started out at 1.042, approx 36 hrs later it was down to 1.024. Per the recipe, I temped up to 23℃, from 20℃. Not sure why the increase in temp, but, I went with it.

 

[RoughandReadyRanch]

Couple things I've noticed so far. 1. Champagne yeast, at least the one I'm using, is very sulfury when fermenting. 2. There is very little krausen produced.

I started out at 1.042, approx 36 hrs later it was down to 1.024. Per the recipe, I temped up to 23℃, from 20℃. Not sure why the increase in temp, but, I went with it.

Not sure why 3'C but going 1-2C increase midway through speeds in cleanup of Diacetyl. It might be that or they are looking for a bit of extra ester production at the end in conjunction with speeding up the process to get the beer on tap faster or at least off the yeast cake.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Quick update on this beer. It fermented out to 1.008, I was shooting for 1.007, so I'm pleased! Racked it into the keg on Sunday and took a quick sample tonight after a burst carb and a couple days at 10 psi. It turned out remarkably well!! I would like for it to be just a bit drier, but, its still quite tasty!!

 

[Austin_]

Good to hear. I would not have expected that. The wine/beer hybrid I did recently used a saison yeast to get down dry. Mind sharing you're recipe?

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Don't mind at all! I plan on posting it in the recipe database, but, who knows how long it'll be before I get around to that!

Grain bill:
6.5# Pale malt

Hop schedule:
45 min .15 oz Nelson Sauvin (NZ) - 12.4%
15 min .35 oz Nelson Sauvin (NZ) - 12.4%
3 min .15 oz Nelson Sauvin (NZ) - 12.4%

Other:
3 (750 mL) bottles of Muscat grape juice.
I got mine from here http://www.castellodiamorosa.com/Shop/Non-Alcoholic but I would assume any brand would work. My brother-in-law is a member of their wine club, so he got it at a discounted rate.

Yeast:
Red Star Champagne yeast

Mashed at 154℉, then double sparged at 185℉. I shot for a post boil volume of just under 5 gallons. After the wort cools, add the 3 bottles of grape juice. That should bring you up to 5.5 gallons. OG should be 1.042. Pitch yeast and ferment at 68℉. When your gravity hits 1.024, temp up to 73℉. As previously stated, I'm not sure exactly what that step is for, but, that was part of the recipe I got from the brewery. Your FG should be 1.008. Mine ended up staying in primary for almost a month (life happens) but I'm sure that long of a primary isn't necessary.

I hope I remembered everything! Like I said, it turned out to be a pretty good beer! Nice grape aroma and taste, but not overwhelming. And not a Hubba Bubba grape bubble gum flavor, its a very clean grape flavor.