D-47 question

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flyweed

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Hey guys,

I just started a new batch of mead. I have a 5 gallon primary sitting here full of a new Blueberry Melomel. I will be pitching the yeast soon, but have a question about the yeast starter.

The recipe calls for 3 5g packs of D47 mixed in with 1 cup of water and 1 cup of must at 84F and rehydrate for 30 minutes..then pitch into the must and stir.

This however is not the correct temp to rehydrate this yeast at, according to the package instructions. Should I follow the recipes instructions for the yeast starter, or should I follow the packages instructions which call for 104-109F water for 15 minutes.

Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks
Dan
 
Big Kahuna..Now How did I know you would be the first to answer...I really debated on whether to just send you a PM about this, or post it for all....I guess I wanted multiple opinions..but my mind tells me to do the same thing you just said. I think I"ll follow the packages instructions.

By the way, I was browsing your photo gallery, some of your meads had me drooling....LOL
Dan
 
Big K...I hope you didn't take my post wrong. I meant that in the nicest way. I have ready many of your posts and value your opinion. And thank you for your advice. :)

Dan
 
Here is your second opinion. I agree with BK :D
I've never liked the "add sugars" to hydrate yeast option. Waking yeast up in a nice warm water bath before it's starts eating will always get my vote.
 
Shouldn't you only need one pack of yeast for five gallons? Three seems excessive.
 
flyweed said:
...The recipe calls for 3 5g packs of D47 mixed in with 1 cup of water and 1 cup of must at 84F and rehydrate for 30 minutes..then pitch into the must and stir...
Click to expand...
IMO (and that of others), it is never a good idea to rehydrate dry yeast in anything but plain water, with the exception of adding a rehydration nutrient (e.g. Go-Ferm). The online FAQ on this subject provides more information on the process and the reasons for it. BTW, the rehydration temp. for Lallemand/Lalvin dry yeast is 104°F.

The only time, I recommend the addition of a must to a yeast slurry is when one is trying to acclimate it to a stuck fermentation must, and then that occurs AFTER the yeast are rehydrated - see the FAQ on this subject for more detail.
 
will_cbe said:
Shouldn't you only need one pack of yeast for five gallons? Three seems excessive.
Click to expand...

One pack is sufficient for a 5gal batch but 2 or 3 packs can be beneficial especially for high gravity musts. Most people seem to recommend 2 packs for a 5gal batch and 1 pack for 3gal or less.

I agree with BK on this also. Your best bet is rehydrating with Lalvin GoFerm. The second best option is plain water per the package instructions.

Craig
 
will_cbe said:
Shouldn't you only need one pack of yeast for five gallons? Three seems excessive.
Click to expand...
It may be, but for me it depends on the must OG.

In an Apple-Butter Cyser I made last year, I used 20 g of yeast (OG 1.170). In the Barbera Pyment I started yesterday, I used 10g of yeast (OG 1.124).

Typically, one 5g packet is sufficient for a mead. Yet, I find the fermentations proceed more effectively (time-wise, I chart them all) when I use 2 packets with higher gravity musts.
 
I have 13 pounds in it right now...and will be adding 1 pound of honey over the course of the first 3 rackings.

Also, just so you know, I have in the 5 gallons already pectin enzyme, yeast nutrient AND yeast energizer.

The recipe looks like this:
10lbs frozen blueberries
16lbs Honey
5tsp. Yeast Nutrient
2 tsp. yeast energizer
3/4 tsp. Pectic enzyme
5 campden tablets (crushed)
3 packets of Lavlin D47

Mix 13lbs honey with 1 gallon of water. Add to carboy and shake well. Pour into fermentor and add one gallon room temp. water. Add nutrients, energizer, pectic enzyme and crushed campden tablets. Allow blueberries to completely thaw and mash them with your hands to just crush or split the berries. Add blueberries to the must and cover for 24 hours.

Make yeast starter with a cup of water and a cup of must, around 84 degrees. Add the yeast and make sure it is working. Pitch yeast after 30 minutes and stir.

Be careful how much water you add at this point, the blueberries will swell and rise to the top. Cover with a towel..stir every day for 10-14 days. Rack off into secondary and top off to proper level. Put the air lock on the seconday and rack every 30 days for 4 months. Add 1lb of honey for the next 3 rackings for a sweeter mead. It should not be in the dry range, and is much better in the semi-sweet range.

You should have it clear and fermentation finished by around 4 months. Age as needed, bulk aging this one is recommended.

Dan
 
Semi-sweet is right. I used D-47 in my raspberry melomel w/ 15lbs honey in a 6gal batch w/ 66oz raspberry syrup and it was semi sweet. Finished about 1.008 before I added the remaining 20oz of raspberry syrup.

D-47 topped out for me right at 14.5%, so 16lbs of honey in a 5gal batch plus your fruit might leave you with a very sweet mead. I'm sure BK or HighTest can chime in here on that.
 
This one's not so simple... Initially, the 13 lbs of honey & 2 gallons of water should create a must whose OG is ~1.148 with a volume of 3.1 gallons. Now we add 10 lbs of frozen blueberries. Volume-wise that should displace about 1½ gallons putting the must volume at ~4.6 gallons. Point-wise those berries should add about 10 points to the SG.

Now for the fun part. As the berries ferment they will retain some of the must liquid - perhaps ~1 gallon. Now it's unclear whether more water is added (beyond the initial 2 gallons), and if so how much. So it's difficult to continue the calculation.

FWIW, my last encounter with D-47 was making a traditional mead. I used 19 lbs of honey with 4 gallons of water (OG 1.118) and 10g rehydrated D-47. Naturally, I followed my staggered NAS. After 21 days the mead finished at 0.996 (not a typo) - over 122 point drop.

Any guess at the ABV? :)
 
hightest..you are hitting the money RIGHT on the head with your calculations. I did take a hydrometer reading BEFORE adding anymore water, and my reading was 1.141. And yes, once the blueberries are racked off, more water WILL be added to top off to 5 gallons, plus the addition of 3 more pounds of honey yet, over the next 4 months.

Dan
 
BigKahuna said:
16% WOW....Cause of the staggered additions? Gotta be it!
Click to expand...

I've been using HT's SNA for a while now and can attest to it's validity. Have one going over 17% with D-47 kept around 62-64d F.

I'm curious to know if anyone has experience with D-47 at lower temps? I know it's good down to 50ish for white wine (~1.090), but what about high gravity (1.130) mead at 56-58d F?
 
flyweed said:
hightest..you are hitting the money RIGHT on the head with your calculations. I did take a hydrometer reading BEFORE adding anymore water, and my reading was 1.141. And yes, once the blueberries are racked off, more water WILL be added to top off to 5 gallons, plus the addition of 3 more pounds of honey yet, over the next 4 months.
Click to expand...
Considering the likelyhood of minor measurement variations, I would agree that 1.141 is close enough to 1.148 to consider "right-on". ;) One must make extremely accurate measurements to achieve the exact calculated SG (± 0.001), which is not always possible (or necessary)...

A few years ago I determined a formula that demonstrates the OG sensitivity to ingredient measurement error as a function of the must's OG. For your initial OG of 1.148, a 1 cup measurement error in honey would change the OG by 5.4 points, and a 1 cup deviation in water would affect the FG by 4.7 points. Measurement variations in both ingredients can easily account for a 7 point SG difference.

Be careful using the above numbers as they are somewhat non-linear and are only valid for the specific OG in question. They are NOT universal rules of thumb.
 
Hightest, I have been reading your posts the entire time I have been into brew (only a bit over a year) on a couple different forums. With all of your knowledge, tests, formulas, etc, I have always what background you have. I realize you have reasrs of experience as a brewer and discussing things with other experienced brewers, but do you mind me asking what you do or did for a living. I am curious if you have a math, science, engineering, biology etc background?
 
Tusch said:
Hightest... do you mind me asking what you do or did for a living. I am curious if you have a math, science, engineering, biology etc background?
Click to expand...
My background is (as you suspected) heavily based on science, chemistry, mathematics, electronics, instrumentation, engineering (mechanical and nuclear), and human performance and error analysis.

While I am retired, my work history involved 35 years of in-depth anaylsis of nuclear power systems design, problem diagnosis, and developing corrective actions for these problems.

In addition, I spent 7½ years (out of 11½) in the Navy Nuclear power program as an instructor at the West Milton facility in Ballston Spa, NY (I was a Training EOOW). I added that last sentance for the benefit of those who have gone through that program as they understand how difficult is it to complete, let alone be invited to serve as an instructor.
 
Wow..that's quite the background. :) Congrats on all your accomplishments.

Also, I need to correct my OG of 1.141 as originally stated earlier. I did NOT take into account the temperature..which in my case only added +1 point. so my OG would actually be 1.142 starting.

Dan
 
I use D-47 a lot. I have found that the best results that I get are when I put the yeast in room temp fruit juice for a few hours. The blueberry batch did take a bit to start. I ended up aereating mine alot and ultimately it took racking it to get the whole shebang started. I would recomend that you put the blueberries in the secondary so it doesn't dry way out. I ended up back sweetening mine a lot.
 
Hey guys...just wanted to update you on the 5 gallon batch of BlueBerry Mead I have working away right now. Today is day 12 since I made it(made on 11/05/08), and have been following the directions of stirring daily to aerate and keep O2 levels up..and just covered with a cloth. Today(11/17/08) I racked it off the blueberries. Temp: 69F and S.G. is now at 1.013 and I put the airlock on about 2 hours ago. I see 1 bubble every 3 minutes or so. Is this good or bad? Granted I've got 4 more months to go with 4 more rackings and 3 more pound of honey to add at the next 3 rackings, but will the must be ok just "sitting there" like this until the addition of honey a month from now?

Any advice or input would be great.

Dan
 
bump..any thoughts I my current S.G. reading and not much airlock action???
 
Hello all, Flyweed thanks for trying my Blueberry Melomel. One of the great things about D-47 is it's ability to surpass it's max % when you use step additions over time. With this receipe it will hit right at the 18% depending on the sugar content of the blueberries. The big variable is the berries as sugar content changes from year to year and bush to bush.

The reason for adding the 3 packs of yeast is because the OG is so high it will overwhelm a single and using the must in the starter is a big debate topic on many mead forums. Each to their own opinion as long as it works. But, it gives the yeast a chance to suck in some of the honey and start reproducing a bit before they get shocked and struggle with that much sugar content. I have done this one several times over the years and it could be done with any berries but those in the back yard were great.

Glad this got such a good thread going. Anyone around K.C. on Thanksgiving is welcomed to stop in for a glass at about a year old since bottling.
 
Hey Mark

Glad you posted on here. It works talking to you alot better than using up my WHOLE 5 Private messages...why do they give you so few???

Anyway..I think your recipe is great, and I can't wait to sample the finished product. So far so good! :)

Dan
 

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