Fermenting lagers with ale yeast at true ale temps??

[fergy89406]

Thank you Denny for taking offense to my statement. It is just what I was wanting. Yep... you got me. I just wanted to piss you off. And thank you for correcting my spelling. That was an obvious mistake, and I take full responsibility for it.

But that doesn't make my statement untrue. "Clean" is not clean. As Airborne said... "Clean" is relative. What's "clean" for you, is not "clean" for me. What I deem "clean" will never pass for your ideal of "clean".

Let bygones be bygones. Lift up your glass, make a toast, and drink it down. You and I have obviously butted heads about this matter.... so let's leave it be.

 

[motobrewer]

you do understand that Denny has a commercial yeast strain named after him....right?


but no, you've been brewing for like a year, you must know more about yeast/fermentation than him. oh, and about "cleanliness"...."clean is not clean"...freakin Bruce Lee of brewing over here.

 

[Yooper]

Alright, that's enough. Personal attacks and snide comments are not going to be tolerated in this forum.

My only input on this topic is that a lager is a lager and an ale is an ale- fermenting with ale yeast at ale temps makes an ale. I can taste the difference, usually- but pacman yeast at 60 degrees could definitely fool me.

 

[FarmerTed]

Coming up on my brewing schedule is to try a Premium American Lager with Wyeast 2112, California Lager.

On Brew Strong, I once heard John Palmer ask Jamil Zainasheff what styles he would ferment with 2112. Jamil said California Common and Robust Porter. No other styles, and scarcely any more discussion. Jamil compared making any other lager with 2112 to making a Saison with S-04, or something equally outlandish. It was pretty clear that Palmer had a different opinion, but he just said "Hmm."

2112 is one of four yeasts the manufacturer recommends for Premium American Lager! Granted, it's the fourth choice, but I'll go out on a a limb and say that it would make a better lager than a Saison made with S-04.

Jamil's only homebrewing goal is/was to win competitions. He wasn't really interested in experimenting or going outside of style guidelines, so you have to take what he said with a grain of salt.

 

[stamandster]

Check out Brewing TV Episode 53. They do a whole show on lager workarounds. There might be something useful for you in there.

Yeah he used Wyeast Bohemian 2124 Lager at Ale temps. They said it was "clean"... err....

 

[Airborneguy]

Jamil's only homebrewing goal is/was to win competitions. He wasn't really interested in experimenting or going outside of style guidelines, so you have to take what he said with a grain of salt.

Watch it, saying negative things about god isn't really appreciated around here (except by me).

 

[Denny]

Watch it, saying negative things about god isn't really appreciated around here (except by me).

So, you guys know Jamil pretty well, huh? I do and you're wrong. For one thing, he hasn't entered a homebrew comp in years.

 

[Airborneguy]

How did I imply that I know him? All I let on through my comment is that I like hearing negative things about him. I didn't say anything about his childish 'humor', recipes that are created solely to hit style guidelines, or anything else I believe. I definitely don't know him. From the podcasts, I can tell I wouldn't want to soend 5 minutes around him.

 

[motobrewer]

recipes that are created solely to hit style guidelines,

that makes him a bad guy? he wrote a book on "brewing classic styles". his podcast was about "brewing classic styles". maybe that's what he likes to do?

personally I never heard anything in his podcasts to make me thing he was a jerk (or, to make me "like hearing bad things about him", which is the most clever way I've heard for calling somebody a d-bag)

 

[Yooper]

You guys! Knock it off!

Denny and Jamil are both two of the nicest guys around. They are very different, but both have been exceedingly gracious to me. I've appreciated all of the knowledge imparted from the websites and podcasts, and they have helped advance homebrewing techniques and even legislation making homebrewing legal in places. (Particularly Denny through the AHA).

I happen to like both men very much, although I don't know either of them very well. I have a lot of respect for both of them.

If you don't care for some of the perhaps sophomoric humor Jamil has shown on a podcast or two, that's fine. Don't listen! I don't laugh at fart jokes anymore myself. (um, ok, actually I do). But to denigrate someone you don't even know on our forum is really over the line. If you don't wish to meet him, or know him, that's certainly up to you. But I will tell you that having a beer with him is a good time. I don't have to love his book (although I do) to acknowledge his contribution. I don't have to like him (although I do) to use mrmalty.com's pitching rate calculator.

We are WAY off topic.

I'd like you to think of me as the mom around here, reminding you of the Golden Rule. If you can't say something nice, then perhaps you should STFU. At least that is the way my mom taught me.

Seriously- be kind. Stay on topic. Express your opinions on the topic we are discussing, and feel free to disagree. But let's not turn into a mud-slinging place where negativity is accepted. We are ALL better than that.

 

[pm5k00]

I do my Oktoberfest with WLP 007 @ 64F then cold condition for a month or two. comes out very good, I can tell its not a lager, but no one else could.

 

[FarmerTed]

So, you guys know Jamil pretty well, huh? I do and you're wrong. For one thing, he hasn't entered a homebrew comp in years.

He's not a homebrewer anymore.

You don't need to know the guy to know what his motivations are. He has said on the BN that when he was formulating his competition recipes, he would dump entire batches if he didn't think they would be winners. He didn't say the batches were bad, just not perfect for competition. To me, that's a guy who is/was motivated to brew beers for competition, not a guy who wants to find out what a dopplebock brewed with SF lager yeast would taste like.

 

[fergy89406]

Denny... if you know Jamil so well... you might want to talk to him. I've chatted with him many times on yeast.... he's my go to guy whenever I have questions about yeast. He even agrees with me that clean yeasts are not really "clean", just "cleaner" than most.

And I really don't see why my one year of brewing is a detraction on my skills? In that year, I've brewed over 25 batches of good to great beer. Out of the 25 batches, 23 were all-grain. I've read tons of books, source materials, procedures, etc. I've tried and experimented many techniques. I get that I'm a newbie to a lot of you..... just for the fact that you've been brewing longer than me. But that's a little elitist, isn't it? Yeah.. you have more "experience"... does that mean that I don't know a damn thing?? I think not.

 

[Denny]

No, it doesn't mean you don't know a damn thing. It also means you don't know everything. When I was 20 I thought my parents were idiots. When I was 40, I was amazed at how much smarter they'd become.

 

[pohldogg]

Not to go all the way back to page 2, but maybe you'd get more maibock like with something other than pale ale malt. Maybe something a bit more dare I say "traditional" like a german pils. For all the parameters you laid out I'd figure you'd have taken the grain used into the maltiness desired aspect. Unless your palate gets continental pilsner flavors from regular 2 row.

 

[fergy89406]

Pohldogg... I actually did consider that when I made my malt bill. But truthfully... the maltiness/flavor between an American 2-Row and a Continental Pilsner malt really isn't that far off to begin with... especially when mashing at the lower end that I did. About the only thing you'd really change in the end product is color... and even then it'd be miniscule.

Denny.... I do know I don't know everything. And truthfully no one does. Brewing, as much as it is an art AND a science..... no one's going to get to the point that they know everything there is to know... because everything changes in the brewing world from one minute to the next. Some ideals will be lost, only to be rediscovered (such as reiteration/double mashing). Some aspects of brewing could never be pondered until actually demonstrated (i.e. no sparge brewing or BIAB brewing).

But I am very sure in the knowledge that I've collected in the paltry year that I've been brewing. I didn't fall haphazardly into this hobby/obsession. I researched it thoroughly before I purchased my first piece of equipment. And I continue to read. And learn. And relearn.

My goal, at the end of the day, is not different from yours. That goal is to make great beer. With this experiment, I wanted to do what (as far as I could tell) no one tried. Not a pseudo-lager. Not in any sense. I was never trying to create a pseudo-lager..... more so an ale that could, theoretically, be as close to its lager counterpart without getting into that area of brewing.... i.e. colder fermentation, cold storage, etc. etc. An ale, brewed at normal ale temps, that can be as close as it possibly can to its lager counterpart.