FG vs sweetness

[SconnieBrewer]

I heard Jamil say on one of the shows that a beer can finish "dry" with a high FG, and a beer can finish "sweet" with a low FG. Lately I've been brewing various iterations of the Southern English Brown recipe from BCS. The recipe has ~30% crystal malt, and I've mashed at up to 158 F. I've had FG's up to 1.015 and great body to the beer despite the low OG. I've used WLP002 and S-04 with similar results and attenuation of ~65%. However, it's not as sweet as I would like it.

So what affects sweetness more, mash temp or crystal amount?

I would tend to think that since the long chain dextrins left by a higher mash temp are not very sweet tasting, mash temp has more of an effect on body and mouthfeel than perceived sweetness. I'm leaning toward going up further on the crystal and actually dropping the mash temp a bit if the body gets too big.

Any thoughts or data on the matter? Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

I heard Jamil say on one of the shows that a beer can finish "dry" with a high FG, and a beer can finish "sweet" with a low FG. Lately I've been brewing various iterations of the Southern English Brown recipe from BCS. The recipe has ~30% crystal malt, and I've mashed at up to 158 F. I've had FG's up to 1.015 and great body to the beer despite the low OG. I've used WLP002 and S-04 with similar results and attenuation of ~65%. However, it's not as sweet as I would like it.

So what affects sweetness more, mash temp or crystal amount?

I would tend to think that since the long chain dextrins left by a higher mash temp are not very sweet tasting, mash temp has more of an effect on body and mouthfeel than perceived sweetness. I'm leaning toward going up further on the crystal and actually dropping the mash temp a bit if the body gets too big.

Any thoughts or data on the matter? Thanks!

While it's true that mash temp leaves longer-chained sugars, that's more about body as you've found out.

In general, a beer with 30% crystal would normally taste pretty sweet. I wonder if your balance between the OG and the IBUs is in error- in other words, perhaps it's not the malt bill or mash temperature at all, and is instead that the beer is overbittered.

Beer is all about balance, and balancing the IBUs and the OG is a big part of the perception of sweetness or bitterness in the finished beer.

If you post a typical recipe, we can look and see if that's possibly what's going on.

 

[SconnieBrewer]

Thanks for the quick reply!

The beer is bittered to 16 IBU with EKG, so I don't think that is it. There is some mild bitter roastiness which I believe is from the pale chocolate and carafa. I've started adding these roasted malts at vorlauf which has really cut down on the bitter roastiness while still preserving the dark color and chocolate and coffee tones.

The overall flavor of the beer is exactly what I want, just not quite sweet enough. I found a good PowerPoint presentation on the style given at NHC '08 (http://www.bjcp.org/cep/nhc08_SEBA.pdf) which says that Mann's actually sweetens with sucrose post fermentation and others use lactose or NutraSweet. I've thought about adding Splenda at bottling (so I wouldn't have to pasteurize) but would really like to try and just modify the grain bill first.

How high have folks gone with the crystal malt...35%, 40%?

Here is Jamil's recipe (also available on the AHA website):

Maris Otter 71.5%
Crystal 80L 10.4%
Crystal 120L 6.5%
Special roast 5.2%
Pale chocolate 3.9%
Carafa II 2.6%
EK Goldings (60 min addition) 16 IBU
WLP002 or Safale S-04 at 68 F.

OG 1.041, 60 min boil, mash at 153 F for 60 min

 

[gbx]

Thanks for the quick reply!

The beer is bittered to 16 IBU with EKG, so I don't think that is it. There is some mild bitter roastiness which I believe is from the pale chocolate and carafa. I've started adding these roasted malts at vorlauf which has really cut down on the bitter roastiness while still preserving the dark color and chocolate and coffee tones.

The overall flavor of the beer is exactly what I want, just not quite sweet enough. I found a good PowerPoint presentation on the style given at NHC '08 (http://www.bjcp.org/cep/nhc08_SEBA.pdf) which says that Mann's actually sweetens with sucrose post fermentation and others use lactose or NutraSweet. I've thought about adding Splenda at bottling (so I wouldn't have to pasteurize) but would really like to try and just modify the grain bill first.

How high have folks gone with the crystal malt...35%, 40%?

Here is Jamil's recipe (also available on the AHA website):

Maris Otter 71.5%
Crystal 80L 10.4%
Crystal 120L 6.5%
Special roast 5.2%
Pale chocolate 3.9%
Carafa II 2.6%
EK Goldings (60 min addition) 16 IBU
WLP002 or Safale S-04 at 68 F.

OG 1.041, 60 min boil, mash at 153 F for 60 min

I know this is an old thread but I too am on the same quest and your "problem" with sweetness and roastiness is the same as mine. I too have been going with the BCS recipe as a base. Did you ever get it right? In regards to the powerpoint, I really doubt the grist given for Mann's is legitimate: "Grist*is*pale*malt,*black*malt,*crystal*malt*and*
wheat*malt, Grist*is*unchanged*since*1902" Maybe now but definitely not since 1902. If there was wheat it is probably torrified, not malted and I'm sure most of the colour comes from caramel colourant and possibly a dark invert sugar. ...but I'm thinking I'm going to try adding lactose to some of this batch and see how it turns out. My other thoughts for sweetness are using wy1318 and golden promise as the base malt - both seem to give a perception of sweetness on the finish