Good pH meter

[AndyRN]

I've read a lot of threads on pH meters but they are all in the $80-100 range. Is there anything that works decent in the $40 range? I've also looked at the pH strips targeted at mash the pH range, anyone have experience with these? Some people complained the color of the mash can affect the color of the strip.

 

[hottpeper13]

Look's like you might be a nurse. Does that machine that takes blood pressure cost $40? I don't think so. A mechanic is only as good as his tools and good tools cost money.

 

[aangel]

There's "ok" pH meters in the $20-$40 range. Check ebay - there's one that does 0.01 resolution with .05 accuracy, BUT - it's only got one-point calibration.

As for sphygmomanometers, perfectly usable accurate ones exist for $20. I own two

 

[LandoLincoln]

I've read a lot of threads on pH meters but they are all in the $80-100 range. Is there anything that works decent in the $40 range?

No.

 

[AndyRN]

Look's like you might be a nurse. Does that machine that takes blood pressure cost $40? I don't think so. A mechanic is only as good as his tools and good tools cost money.

I work at a hospital, the only thing that costs less than $40 is my hourly wage. That doesn't mean there are not perfectly acceptable blood pressure machines for less than $40. I use the "A mechanic is only as good as his tools and good tools cost money" line on my wife when I want to spend more money on something a little nicer than what I really need. We all know that line is BS and can point to a million examples where that is not true. The only time that is true is when you are talking about the tool between your ears.

 

[balrog]

... the only time that is true is when you are talking about the tool between your ears.

Isn't this where @Billy-Klub jumps in with a goat comment?

Anyway, I personally tried the pH strips in the mash range. I have been unable to convince myself they are accurate or useful, and sadly have no way to verify due to self-induced spastic tendencies relating to scorching liquids, tender human skin, and the application of Gravity. YMMV. But the Gravity thing will get ya.

 

[IslandLizard]

There's "ok" pH meters in the $20-$40 range. Check ebay - there's one that does 0.01 resolution with .05 accuracy, BUT - it's only got one-point calibration.

The OP could get away with the 0.01 one, when calibrated at 4.0. They almost sound too good to be true for $20.

But when measuring, the accuracy (.05) and repeatability of these instruments can vary quite a bit, so you could easily get a deviation of .1 pH in either direction, without knowing which side of your target you're on. I guess it's better than nothing, and you should be within range if you aim for pH 5.3.

They can be perfectly usable as long as you have another, more precise one as your reference.

To the OP: read the brew science forum on what meters have been proven usable and which are recommended.

 

[killian]

buy the strips or buy a quality meter

 

[ajdelange]

I use the "A mechanic is only as good as his tools and good tools cost money" line on my wife when I want to spend more money on something a little nicer than what I really need. We all know that line is BS and can point to a million examples where that is not true.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Truer words were never spoken and there is a tremendous difference between what one can do with a well made tool and a poorly made one. People who don't recognize that have never been exposed to well made tools and that may be the majority of us as well made products are rare these days because the public wants low price more than it wants quality which in most cases it can't appreciate anyway. At the same time it is remarkable to me that Ryobi can make a sawzall that works for a time at least and sell it at a profit for $20 after shipping it here from China.

WRT the pH meters, 'good' ones start at about $500 but as with the sawzall there are several at about #$100 which will serve the home brewer adequately. And you can use the $20 ones if you calibrate before and after every reading. I'd rather drop the extra $80.

 

[augiedoggy]

My actual experience and testing has been different from most of these guys assumptions?....

I have the chemical drops and three different ph kits for both my hot tub, beer making and my Reef tank aquarium... I decided to spend a whopping $9 on a ph meter like http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-PH-...549?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d50db695
and it works pretty damn good so far for the last few months. in the beginning I did not trust it so I tested everything with the drop solution and the results always backed up what the meter read....
I'm sure if it was something scientific where very precise ph readings were needed there are better options but for making checking the ph of water for beer of salt water aquarium life it works well and its super easy to use. I'd say the accuracy is consistently within .2 so again it depends on what you need it for.
I also have a cheap TDS meter I use to test for the dissolved solids in my RO water

I did discover that the ph 5.2 stabilizer only brings my tap water down to 6.3 (our tap water is 7.9-8.0 ph!) this helped me switch to lactic acid and other minerals which I now use with RO water which improved all my beers but my stouts and porters which I still use tap water for.

 

[augiedoggy]

Look's like you might be a nurse. Does that machine that takes blood pressure cost $40? I don't think so. A mechanic is only as good as his tools and good tools cost money.

But in reality the the best tools in the world cant compensate for whats in his head....I believe the phrase is actually the "right" tool not the "best"

EDIT... I missed that someone beat me to the punch here..

 

[BowAholic]

I was there a short while back...tried the strips and wasted my money. I bought a HMD PH-200 Digital for $59.99 shipped. If you add the cost of the wasted money on strips to the $40 limit you have... your about there. It works very well.

 

[ajdelange]

We are always looking for viable meters but haven't found any yet that are any good at under the $100 price point. So could you that are pleased with your under $100 finds please publish stability check data for them? See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256 if you don't know how to do a stability check.

Thanks.

 

[Gavin C]

In my limited experience with pH meters and Bru'n Water; the software I use to calculate estimated mash and needed adjustments, I see no point in buying meter or strips with an resolution of less than +/-0.05.

The algorithm in Bru'n water is within this level of accuracy with my brews thus far. I have a meter with an accuracy of +/-0.01 (Hach Pro+).

I calibrate it for each brew day and measured pH is usually within 0.05 of my target. (still in the learning phase and making adjustments to predicted mash acidifications as my data set grows). The last brew was off by 0.02 of target mash pH.

Two good tools being used; the software and meter. The good folks shepherding things in the brew Science forum have been enormously helpful. Still a lot to learn but feel competent to involve myself in such discussions as this one. Perhaps I am blissfully unaware of my ignorance and this last statement is a joke to many readers.

The meter and needed solutions were about $200. Not sure exactly but I view it as money well spent.

Hach Pro +

A calibration solution in use

 

[LandoLincoln]

In my limited experience with pH meters and Bru'n Water; the software I use to calculate estimated mash and needed adjustments, I see no point in buying meter or strips with an resolution of less than +/-0.05.

The algorithm in Bru'n water is within this level of accuracy with my brews thus far. I have a meter with an accuracy of +/-0.01 (Hach Pro+).

I calibrate it for each brew day and measured pH is usually within 0.05 of my target. (still in the learning phase and making adjustments to predicted mash acidifications as my data set grows). The last brew was off by 0.02 of target mash pH.

Two good tools being used; the software and meter. The good folks shepherding things in the brew Science forum have been enormously helpful. Still a lot to learn but feel competent to involve myself in such discussions as this one. Perhaps I am blissfully unaware of my ignorance and this last statement is a joke to many readers.

The meter and needed solutions were about $200. Not sure exactly but I view it as money well spent.

Hach Pro +View attachment 279726

A calibration solution in useView attachment 279727

You'll note that nowhere in your Hach Pocket Pro+ instruction manual does it mention anything about using a storage solution. Not really needed.

 

[Gavin C]

You'll note that nowhere in your Hach Pocket Pro+ instruction manual does it mention anything about using a storage solution. Not really needed.

Spot on LL A few drops of water in the cap are all that's needed. Spot on advice there. It seems is it an outlier in this respect.

Found this out after I bought the stuff. $10ish i think; irksome nonetheless

Edit: Use of the solution is potentially harmful it would seem. (Parroting more knowledgeable folks here I'm afraid)

 

[lump42]

I've had good experience with Oakton meters. I only use them for measuring soil and greenhouse media at work and calibrate before I measure a sample. The one I'm using now is Oakton EcoTestr pH. It's not under $40, but is a godd meter for ~$50. http://www.amazon.com/Oakton-EcoTestr-Waterproof-Tester-Range/dp/B004G8PWAU.
The biggest downside I have with it is that the electrode is not replaceable.

 

[ajdelange]

Edit: Use of the solution is potentially harmful it would seem. (Parroting more knowledgeable folks here I'm afraid)

It's only harmful if it contacts the reference junction and it is not of the same composition as the fill solution in the reference electrode. You can probably assume that that is 3M KCl but you can't be sure. The proper action is RTFM and do what it says. Problem with the Hach instructions is that they aren't very clear (same with the Omega). So do what they tell you to do on the telephone.

It does not matter what touches the bulb (unless its lye or HF or something that corrode glass) so for the Hach meter DI water, tap water, or one of the buffers or storage solution are all fine but you only need a few drops which is not enough to contact the bulb. Just enough to keep the humidity inside the cap up. If it is storage solution be sure not to put in enough to touch the junction unless you are sure that the fill and storage are of the same composition.

 

[Gavin C]

It's only harmful if it contacts the reference junction and it is not of the same composition as the fill solution in the reference electrode. You can probably assume that that is 3M KCl but you can't be sure. The proper action is RTFM and do what it says. Problem with the Hach instructions is that they aren't very clear (same with the Omega). So do what they tell you to do on the telephone.

It does not matter what touches the bulb (unless its lye or HF or something that corrode glass) so for the Hach meter DI water, tap water, or one of the buffers or storage solution are all fine but you only need a few drops which is not enough to contact the bulb. Just enough to keep the humidity inside the cap up. If it is storage solution be sure not to put in enough to touch the junction unless you are sure that the fill and storage are of the same composition.

I was your good self that schooled me on the right way to look after the meter in storage. Thank you. Just a few drops of water in the measuring cup is what I now use. That's how it ships, so I should have realized.

R' ing TFM did not tell me what to do, so I incorrectly assumed that storage media was needed. After 1 month I discovered the error of my ways. Thankfully all seems to be in order. No immediately obvious harm done. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[AndyRN]

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Truer words were never spoken and there is a tremendous difference between what one can do with a well made tool and a poorly made one. People who don't recognize that have never been exposed to well made tools and that may be the majority of us as well made products are rare these days because the public wants low price more than it wants quality which in most cases it can't appreciate anyway. At the same time it is remarkable to me that Ryobi can make a sawzall that works for a time at least and sell it at a profit for $20 after shipping it here from China.

WRT the pH meters, 'good' ones start at about $500 but as with the sawzall there are several at about #$100 which will serve the home brewer adequately. And you can use the $20 ones if you calibrate before and after every reading. I'd rather drop the extra $80.

I appreciate the comments on the pH meter and strips, I think I may try the strips and go from there.

The problem with these quotes is that they sound great, people latch on to them, and assume that high price means quality, which is often not the case. The other issue with this quote is that it makes it seem as if there is a "line in the sand" and on one side are the tools worth buying and the other side lives total garbage. This often not the case and most of us live in the middle where we have to weigh price, features, and quality. It seems as if $40 is on the garbage side of the line.

 

[AndyRN]

I was there a short while back...tried the strips and wasted my money. I bought a HMD PH-200 Digital for $59.99 shipped. If you add the cost of the wasted money on strips to the $40 limit you have... your about there. It works very well.

That might work out better. Thanks

 

[AndyRN]

I was there a short while back...tried the strips and wasted my money. I bought a HMD PH-200 Digital for $59.99 shipped. If you add the cost of the wasted money on strips to the $40 limit you have... your about there. It works very well.

Sorry. can't delete this reply

 

[ajdelange]

The problem with these quotes is that they sound great, people latch on to them, and assume that high price means quality, which is often not the case.

Anyone who takes a bon mot like this one as a universal truth more or less deserves what he gets. Obviously if you are fool enough to pay $500 for something worth $40 there are people who will line up to supply it to you at that price. It takes an informed consumer to pick the right tool at the right price and this is part of what the quote is trying to convey: there are other factors besides price and if you allow yourself to be motivated primarily by it you are probably going to be disappointed. This is why I ask the people with the $40 meters to please publish the stability check data. That is a factor that should be considered as well as price. If there is a bargain in a $40 meter (i.e. we find one that is stable) then we want to know about it so we can spread the word. OTOH if we find what we expect to at that price point we want to warn people off.

The other issue with this quote is that it makes it seem as if there is a "line in the sand" and on one side are the tools worth buying and the other side lives total garbage.

You need to think some more about what the quote is trying to tell you.

T

his often not the case and most of us live in the middle where we have to weigh price, features, and quality. It seems as if $40 is on the garbage side of the line.

It is in my experience. That's why I want stability data. There was a time when $100 on a pH meter meant junk (and there is still some $100 junk out there) but people are now putting out meters at that price point that are pretty good. When and if anyone makes a decent meter at the $40 price point we want to know about that too. It's going to take data to support the idea though. "Works good." isn't really sufficient.

 

[ajdelange]

Sorry. can't delete this reply

To delete a post edit it removing all text and then entering a single character. That's all you have to do and why I don't understand why the operators of this site won't let you do a real delete. Maybe they want a record that you did indeed post something at some time even though you removed everything you posted.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Didn't see any mention of the PH-200 from HM Digital

Russ

 

[ajdelange]

That's because it hasn't beer 'qualified' on HBT yet. Qualification means that someone has bought the meter, used it in brewing successfully, run the stability check and posted the data. Only the Hach, Milwaukee and Omega items have been through that and that is why those three meters get recommended here.

I'll note that I have requested stability data in several previous posts in this thread and that no one has responded. If this meter qualifies, let's get the word out. If it doesn't, let's get that word out.

 

[Oldskooler]

Will this fit the bill??


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ST3VTQ4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

That's because it hasn't beer 'qualified' on HBT yet. Qualification means that someone has bought the meter, used it in brewing successfully, run the stability check and posted the data.

What is the "stability check" you mention?

 

[balrog]

What is the "stability check" you mention?

He references in prior post:

We are always looking for viable meters but haven't found any yet that are any good at under the $100 price point. So could you that are pleased with your under $100 finds please publish stability check data for them? See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256 if you don't know how to do a stability check.

Thanks.

and that refers to a really nice write up of using meters.

 

[jsguitar]

I would also advise to OP to not bother spending money on the strips. They can be hard to interpret. I still have a lot left over because I just didn't find them very useful.

If you know your water and use a good calculator like Bru'n Water or the Brewer's Friend Advanced Water Calculator you should get very close to your target ph to the point that you can live without the meter really. It's nice to have one to verify and tweak your mash ph, but I think you'd probably be better served by just using the calculators for now and putting a good meter on your Christmas or birthday list.

FWIW, I have the Hach meter that's been mentioned and am very happy with it.

To echo AJ, it would be nice if people would perform the stability check on the other meters mentioned and post their results for eveyone's benefit.

 

[ajdelange]

Will this fit the bill??

Maybe. Buy one and check it out for us.

One thing I notice in looking at the Amazon comments is that it uses the NIST 6.865 buffer rather than the more usual NiST traceable technical buffer at 7. The NIST buffers may be harder to find than the technical buffers which are found everywhere. Also a detailed perusal of the manual should reveal whether the meter has 'automatic buffer recognition' or if not that lets you choose the buffer you want to use i.e. works with both NIST and NIST Traceable.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

That's because it hasn't beer 'qualified' on HBT yet. Qualification means that someone has bought the meter, used it in brewing successfully, run the stability check and posted the data. Only the Hach, Milwaukee and Omega items have been through that and that is why those three meters get recommended here.

I'll note that I have requested stability data in several previous posts in this thread and that no one has responded. If this meter qualifies, let's get the word out. If it doesn't, let's get that word out.

Are the data sets from stability testing of the the Hach, Milwaukee and Omega meters posted here on HBT?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes. The data I got from a Hach sample are at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256. There are two other data sets in that same thread. Other users have posted theirs (for all three meters as I recall) elsewhere but I would have no suggestion as to how to find it except to go back through Brew Science posts.

 

[BowAholic]

Didn't see any mention of the PH-200 from HM Digital

Russ

That's what the OP bought...and they are good for the money. I will do the test with mine as soon as I find the time and desire to waste some of the solutions that I bought for calibration. This meter has been sold in a lot of brew shops over the years.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Didn't see any mention of the PH-200 from HM Digital

I owned one of those. It lasted me about six months before it started to get really wonky in the readings. The readings were kind of suspect from the get go, to be perfectly honest. Replaced the sensor, didn't help at all. Replaced it with a Hach Pocket Pro+, wish I hadn't wasted the money on a PH-200 and a Milwaukee PH600 before buying the Hach. The Hach is a quality instrument. The others were just junk.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The PH-200's come with a 1 year manufacturer's warranty. Sounds like you got a bad one.

 

[ajdelange]

Just discovered something damning in this meter's users manual. It is limited to 1 point calibration. This will seriously limit the accuracy of it in the range of interest to brewers as they fall half way between the pH's of the buffer's this meter is designed to use according to the manual. If the calibration buffer pH is arbitrary, then one might get fair performance if one has pH 5.4 buffer available but according to the manual the limit is ± pH of 4. 7 or 10.

This problem is, IMO, sufficient to disqualify this meter for use by brewers.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Talked with the manufacturer yesterday, and the pH-200 can be calibrated to any calibration solution. They used as an example a solution @ 5.4.

The text in the instructions is meant to indicate it automatically recognizes 4, 7, and 10 buffer solutions, but it can be calibrated to any buffer solution.

Russ

 

[ajdelange]

Well that helps some but the user would have to obtain or prepare (29 mL 0.1 N acetic acid, 171 mL 0.1N sodium acetate solution) 5.4 buffer and the meter would only be accurate at 5.4 with the inaccuracies at other pH's depending on how far the electrode has drifted. It is the purpose of calibration to compensate for both drift and offset. Here the firmware must assume one (I guess it has to be slope otherwise there would be no way to calibrate at pH 7) and adjust offset. This results in incorrect slope except when the electrode is delivering the assumed slope.

If, for example, the meter assumes slope of 1 (new electrode should deliver close to that) and slope drops to 0.95 (typical end of life value) then there will be 0.05 pH error for each unit of pH away from the calibration point. So if you calibrate for 5.4 and measure 5.6 that's only 0.01 pH at end of life from single point calibration error which obviously isn't much but having to obtain or make that 5.4 buffer wouid be enough to drive me away. And then when it came around to measuring beer pH I'd know I could be off by as much as 0.05 or more. That wouldn't be acceptable to me but may be acceptable to some. Using 4 buffer mash pH errors would be up 0.07 at end of life and again while that may be acceptable to some it wouldn't be to me especially when at the same price point I can buy a meter that has two point calibration (pHEP though it has its own unique problem) and at a slightly higher price point ($110?) I have a choice of three meters with two or three point calibration and known good stability. It's a mystery to me why the manufacturer of this unit would not prepare firmware that allows it to do two point calibration. Obviously $ and clearly most of the buying public hasn't a clue about the significance of this issue so they can get away with it.

Still be interested in the stability of this offering.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

I'll throw my solution into the ring, I have a few old bench top meters (either given to me by friends retiring them or purchased on ebay for between 10 and 20 dollars) these are generally very nice pieces of hardware and when combined with a new probe, and sometimes a new power supply come in at about 60 bucks a pop. Mind you they are less portable than the pen types, but my preferred one sits right next to the deep freeze I use to chill my samples.