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Anyone have any additional insight on this?

I was about to preorder a monster mill, based largely on the reputation of crankandstein (awesome lifetime guarantee, etc), but if this turns out to be true I'm not so sure anymore.

I did email the monster mills guy to ask about the mills at one point a few days back, and the guy that responded was Fred Francis. But, googling it, I do see that both Don Obenauer and Fred Francis are commonly associated with Crankandstein, so I have no idea who to believe.
 
Funkenjäger said:
Anyone have any additional insight on this?

I was about to preorder a monster mill, based largely on the reputation of crankandstein (awesome lifetime guarantee, etc), but if this turns out to be true I'm not so sure anymore.

I did email the monster mills guy to ask about the mills at one point a few days back, and the guy that responded was Fred Francis. But, googling it, I do see that both Don Obenauer and Fred Francis are commonly associated with Crankandstein, so I have no idea who to believe.
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Whomever owns what, that Monster Mill looks nice.
 
I just received my crankandstein a few days ago, one of the outstanding orders. The person I talked to after a few days of not hearing anything was Don. The website is Fred's as are the monster mills. I have never heard anything bad about Fred anywhere. Don is still selling the crankandstein. As far as Fred being underhanded about the deal, who knows what is really going on. They both look sweet to me. :off: 68% to 85% with the new crankandstein:D
 
To cut to the chase, I think perhaps the most important post in that thread is from Fred Francis himself:
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=81371&pid=960625&mode=threaded&show=&st=#entry960625

If what he says is true, then (paraphrased)Fred ran the C&S business, Don did the manufacturing, then Don wanted to ditch Fred to sell his mills himself to make more money, so Fred found a new manufacturer.

So now the original company is sort of split into two chunks: Fred is the guy who was responsible for the good customer service and product guarantee and all that, and Don was the guy who was responsible for making the mills well in the first place.

Sounds like a big mess and largely a matter of opinion - who should own the company - the guy who runs the business, or the guy who makes the mills they sell?
But my 2 cents:
if Fred was responsible for running the entire business side of crankandstein, it seems to me that he sort of owned the company. In that case, the crankandstein name would seem to be his - but he's changing to 'monster', and Don will keep selling as crankandstein. I can see why Don would be pissed about the crankandstein website being used to sell monster mills, but that seems to only be a temporary thing and is really just a legal issue between the two of them, rather than something that the average consumer should care too much about.

In any case, I think that based on this info I would not feel "guilty" or anything about buying mills from either company based on this series of events. It seems that it wasn't so much of a one-sided backstabbing as it was made out to be, rather just a mess between a couple of feuding former business partners which happens every day. Most likely, the crankandstein domain name will eventually go back to Don and then the two companies will be completely separate and they can just compete on the open market. May the best mill win.
 
Man, what a mess. They both sound like real pices of work to me. And I don't know who to believe. It all sounds suspect.
 
Rhoobarb said:
Man, what a mess. They both sound like real pices of work to me. And I don't know who to believe. It all sounds suspect.
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Agreed....and in turn, it make me want to check out the barley crusher a bit close if only to avoid this drama.
 
Sounds like both of them are idiots.

First off, what he's doing is called "cybersquatting" and it's illegal. If he was drawing a paycheck from C&S, then he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name). If he gets sued, I guarantee he'll have to forfeit profits.

I can't imagine there's a ton of money to be made in the grain mill biz, so more than likely both of them are PWT.

Whatever. I got mine and I'm thrilled with it.
 
In case you're at the point of basing you decision on customer service...Check This Out.

For those of you too "busy" to click...BC service was awesome. I'd encourage you to read.

Right out of the box and onto the bucket...nice:

Crusher_2.jpg
 
Cheesefood said:
First off, what he's doing is called "cybersquatting" and it's illegal. If he was drawing a paycheck from C&S, then he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name). If he gets sued, I guarantee he'll have to forfeit profits.
Click to expand...
But who really OWNS the crankandstein name? If what Fred says is true, then he's the one that created and ran the company itself - and Don was only the manufacturer. I'm not a lawyer and don't know all the facts but from what I've read it doesn't seem obvious that Don should somehow automatically own the name when he wasn't running the business - and I suppose the whole thing is really up in the air because they didn't have a bunch of formal, legal contracts defining the company, just informal agreements. If anything, without concrete agreements, is it even clear that one of them should entirely own the business name? If they each have some partial right to it, then it seems they'd both be at fault to a degree, as they're both still using the name in some way.

Not trying to pick sides here, rather trying to point out that it's not that clear what exactly (if anything) either of them is doing wrong. I think saying one of them is doing something illegal is jumping to conclusions, without knowing for certain which one of them should own the crankandstein name. It seems to me that the whole thing is in the gray area and that neither one of them is completely innocent.
 
Ordered the barley Crusher on Monday, delivered to me on Thursday, cracked grain on Friday, brewed on Saturday! :rockin:
 
I think the moral of this story is this. Always put business arrangements in writing.

That said, I'm a consumer. I'll pick the mill that I think will do the best job and offer me the options I want/need. The idea of a motorized monster mill at a reasonable price sounds pretty good to me. Can't wait to see what they come up with. I figure I have a couple more years left out of the mill I currently have, so I'm not in any rush.
 
iamjonsharp said:
Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...
Click to expand...
That also sounds like a reasonable plan... just wait until the dust settles and see how both companies turn out.

Unfortunately, I read somewhere (from someone who had both a BC and a C&S) that the 1.5" rollers on these mills did a "noticeably better" job at crushing without shredding the husks, than the 1.25" rollers on the barley crusher... I don't even know how true that is, but it's stuck in my head. Maybe if someone with experience with both mills can convince me otherwise I'll take that advice and steer clear of both of these quarreling companies.
 
iamjonsharp said:
Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...
Click to expand...

I'm sure both will produce quality mills. However, I would think Monster Mill might be at a slight disadvantage because they will now need to find a machine shop to crank out the parts seeing as the Crankandstein builder forged out on his own.
 
It is like watching my parents divorce all over again...

Dude, this is dumb. If you decide to leave the partnership, which by his own posts Fred did, you cannot take the name with you. It was like the fat kid from the neighborhood who missed the touchdown pass and ran home with the ball. No class.
 
We have no idea if there was any official partnership in place. If Fred didn't trademarked the C&S brand or patent the design, he's got no leg to stand on. If it was an official partnership, any one of the partners leaving would force dissolution of the legal entity unless otherwise accounted for in the written partnership agreement (probably wasn't). It's a lot of speculation but there will be plenty of people ready to buy the Monster Mill and report on the experience. I think when it comes to mills, the key is finding a manufacturer to work cheap. These things are labor intensive... ask Yuri.
 
Yeah, how much money can you make selling these things. I'm assuming it's a part time business.
Not enough brewers to buy a ton of them, and only 1 guy making them would prevent a ton of them being built. Double whammy.
 
Bobby_M said:
We have no idea if there was any official partnership in place. If Fred didn't trademarked the C&S brand or patent the design, he's got no leg to stand on. If it was an official partnership, any one of the partners leaving would force dissolution of the legal entity unless otherwise accounted for in the written partnership agreement (probably wasn't). It's a lot of speculation but there will be plenty of people ready to buy the Monster Mill and report on the experience. I think when it comes to mills, the key is finding a manufacturer to work cheap. These things are labor intensive... ask Yuri.
Click to expand...

Fred's post on the other board seems to suggest that there wasn't a written agreement, just a handshake. He also claims to be the one that came up with the name crankandstein. Seems like it is a bit dubious as to who "owns" what.

Moral of the story: Always put business arrangements in writing.
 
iamjonsharp said:
Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...
Click to expand...


Actually, it'll probably mean that they'll start competing on price more and the mills will end up cheaper. Especially if they want to drive each other out of business. Then maybe I can get one.

As others have said - don't let your money rest on a handshake.
 
Reading one of the posts, it wasn't Fred who left the agreement, but rather Don who decided he didn't need Fred (at least according to Fred). Doesn't that mean that Don left the agreement?

If that is truly the case, then I think that the seller and distributer gets the name; the manufacturer was just the OEM. By leaving the agreement the manufacturer gave up the rights to it.

But by Fred's own words he won't be renewing the .com, so it doesn't sound like it's going to be a permanent thing anyway. By the time the suits resolve this thing it's likely that the website will have already defaulted.
 
Fred stated that Don created/manufactured the mill and came up with the name Crankandstein. Fred just owns the domain for crankandstein.com. As far as the ownership of the brand name, by Fred's own admission, it should stay with Don in the absence of a formal agreement. By all accounts, it has. However, Fred owns the domain name and is free to do with it as he chooses. Fred isn't the first person, and won't be the last, to own a domain name for a product/company that he is not associated with any longer, or in some cases never was. Good luck to both of these guys. I will be in the market for a mill in the near future and look forward to having a new player in the market. I want a solidly designed and built product. However, I want a reputation for quality customer service in case there ends up being a problem with the product.
 
Doesn't matter who owns the website. If a new domain came out...say .beer, Miller could register budweiser.beer, but that doesn't mean they won't get in serious trouble.

Here's what it'll come down to: who owns the copyright for CrankAndStein? If they were smart enough to register the name, it's a non issue. If neither of them can prove to the court that they registered the business name under their name, it'll probably go to Fred. It's important to know how the business was structured. Is it an LLC, an Inc., or just some dude selling stuff and calling it a Crankandstein?

Again, this goes back to the problems associated with owning a business and having zero business experience. This is why you hire a business manager. They know to get a lawyer, a patent, copyright everything and CYA. Sure, it's costly, but not as costly as losing your brand name. Without a copyright, there's no way to prove which one came up with the name Crankandstein.

Important lesson to learn here is:

1. Don't hire people on a handshake.
2. If you have a good product, invest in protecting it.
3. If you don't know how to manage a business, hire someone to manage it for you.
4. Don't piss off your top sales dog.
 
Talk about small world....My first National Home Brew day was when I was living in ATL. (I think in 2003) My appointed brew master, since I was and still am a rank amateur, was Don. He had a pretty cool brew system setup then. Glad to learn he got his grain mill venture off the ground. Sorry to see the troubles, though.
 
I have read numerous articles in the past where people have registered domain names for up and coming companies/products/entities without having any attachment to the company/product/entity. The issue to be careful of is trademark/copyright infringement. There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov. That site is fine for kids, but whithouse.com is definitely for adults only. My wife works for the federal government and had one of her subordinates do a little research for her. The subordinate was a little red in the face when she accidently used the .com extension instead of the .gov extension.

This story sounds like two guys operating a hobby business that has grown into something a little bigger. I doubt that they have gone through the legal trouble of obtaining trademarks or copyrights for the brand name. I can assure you that Miller and A-B have. We are talking different entities/situations here. The business sounds like nothing more than a simple partnership. If they didn't put anything in writing, I highly doubt they would have registered as a LLC or a C- or S-Corp. Those business entities all require filing articles with the state. The required filings would stipulate the exact details of the business ownership.

Regardless, let this situation stand as a shining example of why you need to put everything in writing if you are going into business with someone other than yourself. I am an accountant and have seen this kind of thing too many times. It is always messy to try and sort things out afterwards, because it is always their word against yours. Cheese is right, if you don't have experience in these matters, seek the advice of someone that does. Just do it before you get started and not after things are up and running and the partnership is heading south.
 
I went with Barley crusher. The price was good and I didn't have to buy adaptors to use wit an electric drill or build a hopperfor grain. Works great and I think it is guaranteed forever.
 
TWilson said:
I have read numerous articles in the past where people have registered domain names for up and coming companies/products/entities without having any attachment to the company/product/entity. The issue to be careful of is trademark/copyright infringement. There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov. That site is fine for kids, but whithouse.com is definitely for adults only. My wife works for the federal government and had one of her subordinates do a little research for her. The subordinate was a little red in the face when she accidently used the .com extension instead of the .gov extension.
Click to expand...

While unethical, it's legal to do so long as you're not using the name to sell a competing product. If he had turned crankandstein into a porn site, that's fine. Even if he used it to sell Iced Tea. But since he's selling a competing product to the same market place, it's illegal. Don can and will show harm committed to his business as a result and Fred will have to fork over most of the profit created as a result of sales from crankandstein.com.

The law was specifically written to protect businesses from this type of infringement.
 
cheesefood said:
he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name).
Click to expand...

Intellectual Property is a self-conflicting and purposely confusing term used to create confusion about what rights people have. In this case, you're (I'm assuming) referring to Trademark law that prohibit competing companies from using an established brand name to market another brand and gain on that first brand's name.

However, if the so-called "Intellectual Property" is actually stemming from copyright then they are FREE to use that name under fair use. Nobody can own information (like a name) but the government sets limits on how those names can be used because it affects customers.

TWilson said:
There are numerous examples of people highjacking a name and using different extensions. One shining example is whitehouse.gov.
Click to expand...

The term "White House" is too generic to be trademarked. All materials produced by the US Government for non-internal use are entered into Public Domain. These two things together are specific grants FOR whitehouse.com, not against them.

The term "hijacking" implies that it was taken from a rightful owner - nobody owns the internet, including but not limited to, domain names. The fact that ICANN is heavily US controlled is a different issue... Nothing prevents a citizen of Germany from registering "Wal-Mart.org" if "Wal-Mart" is not a registered trademark in Germany and if the domain is unregistered. Contrary to what some people believe, US law doesn't apply to the entire planet and, as such, not the internet.

cheesefood said:
While unethical, it's legal to do so long as you're not using the name to sell a competing product.
Click to expand...

I see no reason it would be unethical in your example of non-competing products. Kool-Aid as a drink and Kool-Aid as an Arctic Conservancy group both seem pretty legit to me. In THIS specific case I'd argue that Monster Mill IS acting unethically even if they're acting legally, CrankAndStein already has an established identity selling grain mills to home brewers, without a CLEAR indication that the grain mills for home brewers THERE are not CrankAndStein it leads to customer confusion.


cheesefood said:
Doesn't matter who owns the website. If a new domain came out...say .beer, Miller could register budweiser.beer, but that doesn't mean they won't get in serious trouble.

Here's what it'll come down to: who owns the copyright for CrankAndStein? If they were smart enough to register the name, it's a non issue
Click to expand...

Exactly why I hate the term "intellectual property"; it confuses the rights that people do and do not have. The media companies use the term to try and make "sharing" and "stealing" to be the same thing when they clearly are not.

The name of a business or a product can't be copywritten. If it COULD, under copyright law everyone is entitled to fair-use of it. Andy Worhol's art proves this as he painted the Campbell's soup logos in his art. They sued and LOST since he wasn't making verbatim copies for the purpose of commercial gain. Under copyright law all people have the right of Parody and derived-works (such as remixing music or video montage.)

More specifically, ICANN does NOT remove a domain registration for copyright infringement (because a domain name CAN'T, but it's nature, infringe copyright) but they DO (and have) removed them for trademark violations like this (potential - if someone actually had it trademarked) CrankAndStein.com one.

iamjonsharp said:
Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...
Click to expand...

Large companies sometimes exchange lawsuits and threats to promote themselves. Smaller companies, especially ones building upon their reputations for customer service, can be destroyed by these things. In the case of both CandS AND Monster Mill, the confusion leads to loss of confidence in the product people might buy. And people will turn to other brands they know rather than risk getting the shaft amidst the drama. I hope both of those guys can resolve their issues (they both have them) before they both alienate the people they set out to help: customers.
 
"Which grain mill should I buy?" just became a hugely controversial question-having already been a very tough, albeit subjective, one.

Thank God pumps are a clear course...

~HH crosses fingers~
 
Henry Hill said:
"Which grain mill should I buy?" just became a hugely controversial question-having already been a very tough, albeit subjective, one.

Thank God pumps are a clear course...

~HH crosses fingers~
Click to expand...

Just get one. A mill is a mill. It's the age old question: to you want longer or thicker?
 
Well, regardless of any personal opinion on the monster/crankandstein drama, the fact remains that they're now two separate companies - one with unproven product quality, and one with unproven customer service - and thanks to all the drama, who knows if they'll both stay in business, and for how long? What good is a lifetime guarantee if the company goes out of business?

I wish them both the best of luck, the competition between quality grain mills on the market is bound to lead to ever-better products and prices for us consumers. But, (uncertainty about these two companies) + (the fact that I am more interested in getting a good grain mill now than waiting several months to see which one comes on top) = one new barley crusher, bought and paid for. Phew, glad that's over with. :mug:
 
Cheesefood said:
Just get one. A mill is a mill. It's the age old question: to you want longer or thicker?
Click to expand...

THAT one is easy!

She likes the too long and girthy type-and we're well equipped for that. :D
 

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