I think I am done entering Homebrew Competitions

[orangehero]

I think you guys are giving the judges too much credit.

Which judging philosophy do scoresheets like this fall into?

Literally the comments were things like "off aroma" or "off taste" and that's it.

That's the major complaint, and ridiculous scoresheets like that aren't unusual. If people take brewing seriously enough to pay money to enter it into competitions, please take judging seriously.

 

[TobyG]

I think you guys are giving the judges too much credit.

Which judging philosophy do scoresheets like this fall into?

They fall under the lazy philosophy.

 

[MichaelBrock]

Alright.... what happened to AnOldUR's post above? It should have been around #72. He brought up some valid points.

I agree that I see judging generally approached from the "how far a beer is from the prime BJCP example" as opposed to "how good the beer is within a range of characteristics". It's judging the delta of a beer against a model, versus judging a beer within a broad range of characteristics and how good it tastes. I recognize that the goal of a judge is the latter, but I see more of the former taking place

Actually, I think what you're seeing is the way it is supposed to be working. We are not judging how good a beer tastes (theoretically, a judge can competently judge a category they don't even like). We are not judging how a beer fits into a particular range of characteristics. Many beer styles can be described with identical terminology and fit into the same range of physical characteristics. We, as judges, are judging how close a beer is to the "ideal" beer(s) in the category in which the beer is entered. This is why a major component of studying for the exam is to taste and judge the exemplary beers selected by the BJCP. If you have never tasted a helles, for example, you will not be able to competently judge how good a particular example is (and I'm speaking from personal experience here). These exemplary beers define the style, not the range of OG, color, bitterness, etc. The descriptive portion of the guidelines are an attempt to describe those exemplary beers in a general enough manner that they can be used for judging.

Some judges undoubtedly compare everything against single examples of a style and of course that is wrong. The BJCP guidelines actually point out where particular examples have come to represent a style and warns against judging against that sole example.

Personally, my .02 on the whole thing, is that there are simply not enough competent judges to handle all of the judging. And the competent judges tend to be spread too thinly. I have seen competitions where only a few certified+ judges have handled all of the preliminary rounds (100s of beers) and their feedback obviously was close to useless.

The solution? Get out there and become a judge!

 

[AnOldUR]

Alright.... what happened to AnOldUR's post above? It should have been around #72. He brought up some valid points.

Sorry, I thought this thread was permanently derailed by the smoking comments. :cross:

Here it is . . .

Ultimately, it is a STYLE competition . . . On the Podcast referenced earlier, Gordon Strong stated that the commercial examples are actually listed in order of best representation in the guidelines.

Here's where I have a problem with some BJCP judging. In other interviews with Gordon, I've heard it said that it shouldn't be about making a clone of the best example. That the guidelines are broad for a reason. What should be judged the winner is the best beer that fits within the guidelines. The problem is, that’s a subjective call that many judges don’t make. Instead, they look for the clone. Everyone has favorite styles and can pick out a personal favorite from a group of beers that fits into the guidelines. But when they’re expected to judge outside of that narrow area, they fall back on the commercial examples.

Personally, I want to know that I made a great Brown Porter. Not that my Porter tastes like Fuller’s. I want the judge to first determine if the beer is in style and then make the hard call based on his perception of which one of those that do is the best.



edit to say:
hmmmm . . . sounds like every competition needs a mini BOS for each category.

 

[Wynne-R]

AnOldUR got it just right, in my opinion. Most of the time I agree with my co-judges and we can do a flight with little discussion. HOWEVER There are some old farts I butt heads with.

They think they know better than the guidelines. Maybe they do. Everyone knows there are problems with the published guidelines, as revised in 2008.

But right or wrong, it’s official. The entrants read the guidelines, everybody should be using the same playbook.

 

[TobyG]

AnOldUR got it just right, in my opinion. Most of the time I agree with my co-judges and we can do a flight with little discussion. HOWEVER There are some old farts I butt heads with.

They think they know better than the guidelines. Maybe they do. Everyone knows there are problems with the published guidelines, as revised in 2008.

But right or wrong, it’s official. The entrants read the guidelines, everybody should be using the same playbook.

Well, we get to all reboot at some point soon no doubt. I've personally had some good and bad experiences with old farts (although it's only because I took a significant pause from competitions that I'm not one of them).

 

[opiate82]

I've been playing beer-league softball for the better part of 10 years now. Year after year we run into the same incompetent umpires who continue to terribly officiate our games. When I first started I would get so mad as these umps blew calls and cost us games. I would yell, I would stomp and I would send letters to the league officials complaining about these obviously incompetent umpires.

Over the years a couple of things have really changed my perspective. First is, I realized that major league scouts aren't sitting in the stands keeping my stats. My big break isn't going to be blown by these blown calls. The other thing I realized is that the league is just as fed up with the bad umpires as the players are, but there just aren't any other umpires to fill their spots. Without the bad umpires, we don't get to play at all.

Now, when an umpire blows a call I just smile and keep playing, and when one of the quality umpires is umping one of our games I make sure to go out of my way to thank him for his effort.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Now, when an umpire blows a call I just smile and keep playing, and when one of the quality umpires is umping one of our games I make sure to go out of my way to thank him for his effort.

What a great post, reflecting a great perspective. Thanks.

 

[vikingbrewer70]

This is very interesting to me as newer brewer. I have done a fair amount of different beers and I'm getting fairly decent at it. I would like to in the future enter one of my beers into a contest to see I do with in the guidelines and against the judging good or bad. I grew up in 4H where we would always have at least one arrogant soul that thought his was the best view for us to follow, this taught me that dealing with a multiple judge system was good because u would see a ROY G. BIV perspective of what you thought was awesome .
I can tell you that dealing with people who have a group speciality like.. Guns, cars, comics,beer there's always those who feel they are tops and those of us that are new are to be dismissed as mere bugs.. I don't see that on this forum nearly as much I've directed quite a number people that aren't brewers but are interested. I hope when I go to a contest you can give me pointers


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[opiate82]

What a great post, reflecting a great perspective. Thanks.

Thank you. I think perspective is key.

I will add that I do think it is a good idea to let the league/BCJP/whatever know that there are incompetent umps/judges/whatever out there. I would hope they appreciate the feedback as well. Also remember that they probably appreciate the positive feedback just as much as the negative, and it is just as helpful, maybe even more-so.

What I really hoped to impart is to really think about what you personally are getting out of it entering whatever competitive event it is that you are entering. For me with softball I realized (finally) it wasn't winning but more the comradery with all my friends on the team, many of whom I probably wouldn't see that often if it wasn't for the weekly ritual of playing ball together as well as just getting out there and doing the best that I could. Is there a competitive side of me that still loves winning, absolutely, but at least when it comes to playing ball I (again... finally) realized that isn't the reason I play.

 

[AnOldUR]

What a great post, reflecting a great perspective. Thanks.

IMO the analogy sucks. You can play baseball for the love of the sport. Win or lose, you still got to play. I brew beer to make the best product possible. Sure, I love the process, but if the beer sucked, I'd stop brewing.




edit to add:
I enter competition for validation that my beer doesn't suck and get quality feedback if it does. We all can get a case of ugly baby syndrome. Friends and family getting free beer can't be totally trusted. When the system judging beer has flaws it’s only natural to have second thoughts about its value.

 

[mbbransc]

I just got scores back from my first competition. I entered mainly to reinforce what I'm tasting. All the flaws I found in the beer, the judges found. In fact, I had more flaws picked out then they did. Maybe I was being a little too hard on myself. But it certainly lets me know that I'm on the right track.

 

[stpug]

I just got scores back from my first competition. I entered mainly to reinforce what I'm tasting. All the flaws I found in the beer, the judges found. In fact, I had more flaws picked out then they did. Maybe I was being a little too hard on myself. But it certainly lets me know that I'm on the right track.

Or does it?

 

[ajdelange]

The main beneficiaries of home brew competitions are the judges. You'll get much better feedback on your beer by having a group of people with proven palates and deep knowledge of beer over to your house to taste it than you will by entering any contest. How do you gain access to those people? Enter competitions, serve as a steward at them, take the exam, become a beer judge yourself, judge, move up in the ranks, judge, run competitions, judge, become an exam grader.... By the time you have done all that you will have become a good or excellent brewer and a good or excellent taster and when you send an e-mail to the local people whose similar qualifications you most respect asking them to come by and taste your latest they'll respond with "This afternoon OK?". For all its flaws the competition thing is a required part of your home brewing apprenticeship.

I do recognize that this is scheme is not practical for someone living in Borroloola, NT.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I just got scores back from my first competition. I entered mainly to reinforce what I'm tasting. All the flaws I found in the beer, the judges found. In fact, I had more flaws picked out then they did. Maybe I was being a little too hard on myself. But it certainly lets me know that I'm on the right track.

I think this is one of the most beneficial things about sending beer off to comp, especially for newer brewers. When I first started out I had a blonde I knew something was "off" with but didn't have the experience to pin point the issue. I sent it off and the judges helped me to put words to what I was experiencing which helped me to fix those issues. It can be hard to identify these types of things on your own but having someone point it out can really clear up what your palate is telling you.

 

[Homercidal]

Competitions have their place. It's an absolute fact that in many cases, there is a real shortage of qualified judges. In those cases, they have no recourse bu tto have inexperienced judges sit in and help out. Hopefully that person will have at least completed the online portion of the BJCP course.

When I judged for the 1st time I was nervous as hell. I don't consider myself to be a particularly good taster and I was worried I would miss stuff, or not be able to pick out and describe the off flavors well enough for the entrant to help them out.

I was seated with an experienced judge and we sampled each entry individually, scoring on the sheet according to each particular section based on the beer's merits. Then we would check each other's scores and have a short discussion regarding the scores in each section, often re-tasting if there was any real discrepancy. Sometimes one person would taste something and the other person would help them realize what it was. In the end, the two judges were supposed to be within a certain score from each other, or they worked to find out why they scored so differently. It was usually a quick "AHA! I didn't pick up on that the first time!"

Anyone who hasn't got the time or ambition to write REAL feedback on each entry, either needs to 1) get with the competition organizers and MAKE TIME, b) Study up more on the judging process, or c) quit judging.

I had a copy of the guidelines on my phone with me the entire time, checking style ranges, descriptions, etc. For me it was constant. Maybe more judges need to go back to that process?? I know many others there that day also had guidelines printed or on their devices.

One thing I think is important for judges to remember is that when you are tasting, each beer is judged on it's OWN. Each section of the score sheet is judged on it's OWN. It's not fair to compare the current entry against the last one, or the best one so far. Maybe judges subconsciously do that, I don't know.

The truth is, it's WORK to judge if you are doing a good job. Yes, it can be fun. There is some joking, but it's usually very focused with the only sounds being the quiet discussions judges have between them. After a few entries, your palate can become saturated and a cracker and water break is necessary. It's hours of focused tasting.

The second year I was the experienced judge. I was somewhat dismayed at that because I felt that I still needed plenty of judging before I was competent to guide someone new. But we had to work with what we had. It will get better, but only if more people STUDY for judging and then go out and do it. Every judge is a newb at some point. Getting better at it requires judging experience and that requires people sending beer into competitions.

The only way to get rid of those annoying new judges is to enter beer and get them more experience. And hopefully the competition organizers will be paying attention to all the details of the judging and noting things that so not track with the BJCP best practices and corrects them. If you see something not right, then again, tell someone!

 

[TobyG]

The main beneficiaries of home brew competitions are the judges.

huh?

 

[ajdelange]

What don't you understand?

 

[AnOldUR]

Must be all the free beer you get.

ben·e·fi·ci·ar·y (bĕn′ə-fĭsh′ē-ĕr′ē, -fĭsh′ə-r&#275
n. pl. ben·e·fi·ci·ar·ies
1. One that receives a benefit: I am the beneficiary of your generosity.
2. The recipient of funds, property, or other benefits, as from an insurance policy or will.
3. Ecclesiastical The holder of a benefice.

 

[TobyG]

What don't you understand?

The part I quoted. I'm not sure I consider myself as a judge in the average comp as a beneficiary, especially the main beneficiary. Usually the biggest benefit I get is spending time with other likable fellows and maybe a couple slices of pizza. In return I usually spend time away from my family, pay travel expenses (sometimes 'just' gas, but in some cases hotel), and try to provide the best feedback I can on what ranges from very good to woefully flawed beers. I'm just confused about why you say judges are the main beneficiaries of competitions. I must be missing out on something.

 

[ajdelange]

You are apparently unaware of the learning and networking potentials. Or perhaps you haven't experienced the benefits I mentioned yet or perhaps you never will but you can take my word for it that most judges wouldn't do the work, nor sacrifice their time and in some cases money if they weren't aware of the potential rewards. The post does spell out what the benefits are but perhaps I wasn't that clear on it. Have a second read.

 

[TobyG]

You are apparently unaware of the learning and networking potentials.

I don't know if I'd say that as much as I'd say I can get the same benefits by being involved in the homebrewing scene as a whole without having to deal with the competition judging aspect. After all, I met judge A0001 19 years before I ever judged with him.

Or perhaps you haven't experienced the benefits I mentioned yet or perhaps you never will but you can take my word for it that most judges wouldn't do the work, nor sacrifice their time and in some cases money if they weren't aware of the potential rewards. The post does spell out what the benefits are but perhaps I wasn't that clear on it. Have a second read.

I read it at least twice already. I just don't see how the judging aspect of it means I'm the main beneficiary of a competition per se. It would be similar to saying that you're the main beneficiary of the water primer.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't know if I'd say that as much as I'd say I can get the same benefits by being involved in the homebrewing scene as a whole without having to deal with the competition judging aspect. After all, I met judge A0001 19 years before I ever judged with him.

I didn't say that the BJCP was the only way to get the benefits. You could go to UCD or Heriot Watt or attend ASBC and MBAA events or take a job in a brewery and there are doubtless other ways too. It seems to me that the easiest path open to the average home brewer is to get into the BJCP program.

I just don't see how the judging aspect of it means I'm the main beneficiary of a competition per se. It would be similar to saying that you're the main beneficiary of the water primer.

Exactly! I am. Do I have to explain why?

Also I didn't say (or didn't mean to say) that you are the main beneficiary of a particular competition. I said (or tried to say) that you get more out of the competitions than the people who just send in beers and don't participate.

 

[Flipadelphia]

I've been playing beer-league softball for the better part of 10 years now. Year after year we run into the same incompetent umpires who continue to terribly officiate our games. When I first started I would get so mad as these umps blew calls and cost us games. I would yell, I would stomp and I would send letters to the league officials complaining about these obviously incompetent umpires.

Over the years a couple of things have really changed my perspective. First is, I realized that major league scouts aren't sitting in the stands keeping my stats. My big break isn't going to be blown by these blown calls. The other thing I realized is that the league is just as fed up with the bad umpires as the players are, but there just aren't any other umpires to fill their spots. Without the bad umpires, we don't get to play at all.

Now, when an umpire blows a call I just smile and keep playing, and when one of the quality umpires is umping one of our games I make sure to go out of my way to thank him for his effort.

Thankfully you came to your senses. I played softball one summer and there were dudes like yelling at the umpires about calls and I'm like wtf?....it's softball. It's dudes lobbing a ball to each other. That and the guys wearing full baseball uniforms and eye black made me never go back. It's softball.

 

[Flipadelphia]

I didn't say that the BJCP was the only way to get the benefits. You could go to UCD or Heriot Watt or attend ASBC and MBAA events or take a job in a brewery and there are doubtless other ways too. It seems to me that the easiest path open to the average home brewer is to get into the BJCP program.



Exactly! I am. Do I have to explain why?

Also I didn't say (or didn't mean to say) that you are the main beneficiary of a particular competition. I said (or tried to say) that you get more out of the competitions than the people who just send in beers and don't participate.

Do you watch alot of Fraiser?

 

[AnOldUR]

I said (or tried to say) that you get more out of the competitions than the people who just send in beers and don't participate.

Is English your second language?

 

[ajdelange]

Do you watch alot of Fraiser?

No but I looked it up on Wikipedia. Afraid that didn't help me grasp the relevance of the question.

 

[ajdelange]

Is English your second language?

No, in fact I'm familiar enough with it to know that what one writes and what someone else reads can be different things.

 

[PistolaPete]

I think comps are a great way to get advice and pointers but you have to take them with a grain of salt since it involves the human element. Someone above stated that sometimes the judges don't even get lunch which reminded me about a report done recently which showed that a prisoner's chance of parole was greatly influenced by whether their parole hearing was scheduled before or after lunch. Variables like what time of day it is, whether the judge has to go to the bathroom, if it is too hot or cold in the room, if the judge smokes, or is hungry or tired or hungover, probably all influence how a beer is judged. Not to mention they are probably rushed to get through all of the samples in a large comp. Now can someone please pass the salt?

 

[gbx]

I think comps are a great way to get advice and pointers but you have to take them with a grain of salt since it involves the human element. Someone above stated that sometimes the judges don't even get lunch which reminded me about a report done recently which showed that a prisoner's chance of parole was greatly influenced by whether their parole hearing was scheduled before or after lunch. Variables like what time of day it is, whether the judge has to go to the bathroom, if it is too hot or cold in the room, if the judge smokes, or is hungry or tired or hungover, probably all influence how a beer is judged. Not to mention they are probably rushed to get through all of the samples in a large comp. Now can someone please pass the salt?

It should be a requirement of the contest organizer to provide bland sandwiches and cold cuts as a lunch just so the judges aren't tempted to get take-out mexican, thai, indian or other inappropriately spicy palate wrecking cuisine between judging sessions.

I agree with AJ. I've learned far more from participating as a steward or judge than I ever have or could from my competition scoresheets.

 

[TobyG]

I didn't say that the BJCP was the only way to get the benefits. You could go to UCD or Heriot Watt or attend ASBC and MBAA events or take a job in a brewery and there are doubtless other ways too. It seems to me that the easiest path open to the average home brewer is to get into the BJCP program.

In my area of the country (which is probably more like the NT than UCD), the easiest path is to hit up the 'local' brewery tours or be involved in a homebrew club that's active with the 'local' festivals. Nearly all of the breweries in the state are still small enough where the brewers conduct the tours. They also tend to participate in the festivals within the region (I say 'local' rather than local because some are an hour or two away from the others, so they aren't next door), and gravitate towards the homebrew clubs since they aren't that far removed from them (some are even still active members).

Exactly! I am. Do I have to explain why?

Nope. If you consider the two directly analogous, I understand your perspective. I just don't share it quite to that degree.

Also I didn't say (or didn't mean to say) that you are the main beneficiary of a particular competition. I said (or tried to say) that you get more out of the competitions than the people who just send in beers and don't participate.

I guess that's the part that we come at it from a different perspective. There are not many competitions in my area where people just send in beers. There's usually some sort of event associated with the competition.

 

[TobyG]

It should be a requirement of the contest organizer to provide bland sandwiches and cold cuts as a lunch just so the judges aren't tempted to get take-out mexican, thai, indian or other inappropriately spicy palate wrecking cuisine between judging sessions.

Most comps that I've judged in have either gone that route (order up enough Subway for everybody) or pizza (for convenience).

I agree with AJ. I've learned far more from participating as a steward or judge than I ever have or could from my competition scoresheets.

I don't disagree with him on that point. It's just not typical around here. The competitions that most homebrewers participate in over here are usually events, e.g. The Dixie Cup. You get to network and interact just as much if not more as a participant than a judge.

 

[Wynne-R]

Subway ? Ugh. I wouldn’t work any competition where I had to pack a lunch.

All the people I know that are into beer as a hobby, are, without exception, foodies. Serving tasteless food to judges would be a quick way to kill a competition.

 

[ajdelange]

All the people I know that are into beer as a hobby, are, without exception, foodies.

Not, perhaps, all but certainly most

Serving tasteless food to judges would be a quick way to kill a competition.

Most judges understand that the food served at a competition needs to be pretty bland. I still well remember the first competition I ever judged. Whoever was doing the lunch uncorked a container of raw onions in the middle of the morning flight whose aroma completely permeated the large storage area (which later housed the bottling line for that brewery) in which we were judging. I didn't know much about what was going on but I knew my sensors were being jammed.