Invert Sugar - Dilution Method

[x3la]

I happen to have several containers of Lyles Golden Syrup and a tub of Blackstrap Molasses in the cupboard.

I found a web archive of unholymess.com which seems to be the most referenced source of information on making Invert Sugar for brewing: Making Brewers Invert | half a cat

I had assumed that with the Dilution Method I simply blend Golden Syrup and Blackstrap Molasses together at the given ratio, but reading through the comments section I find that this is possibly not correct?

https://web.archive.org/web/2020011...ing-info/making-brewers-invert#comment-177922

"If I wanted to make invert no3 from golden syrup and black strap can I just add both towards then end of the boil? Do they need to be brought to a boil and mixed well separately first?"

"You can do whatever you want…. but that won’t be making no3 and then adding it to a beer. It’ll change the chemistry and the flavors."

Can anyone who has produced Invert Sugar using the Dilution Method confirm? Is any of the first process relevant to the Dilution Method?

I will also try "the Right Way™" at some point but I'd like to brew this week and I have ingredients to hand.

Thanks in advance for any pointers!

 

[Miraculix]

Only info I have is that Lyle's is a good substitute for low colour invert but blackstrap has nothing to do with the traditional invert and should be avoided.

 

[x3la]

Only info I have is that Lyle's is a good substitute for low colour invert but blackstrap has nothing to do with the traditional invert and should be avoided.

Thanks. I'll make it from scratch overnight then. When is it typically added to the mash? flame out?

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks. I'll make it from scratch overnight then. When is it typically added to the mash? flame out?

Flame out!

 

[DBhomebrew]

During the lauter!

 

[Miraculix]

During the lauter!

No! At least not in any way that would result in invert getting into contact with the grain.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Not in the mash. Into the kettle as the wort drains into it. Right into the pre-boil wort. There's plenty of time to mix it in while the bag continues to drain. No invert touches the grain.

 

[hotbeer]

Not sure why the dilution method appeals to you. Nor do I really understand it, other than it seems a way to get darker sugar with some flavors to put in your beer. But that'd never be as dark or as flavorful as you can get making the stuff yourself.

I've made some twice. I basically used the process and ingredients described at this site... Invert Syrups: Making Your Own Simple Sugars for Complex Beers

I went way over hard crack the first time and my invert sugar or whatever it became after reaching hard crack turned into a very hard solid piece of sugar when cooled.... dark and very black. I broke off a piece and tasted it. It had some interesting flavors in it. Since it was solidified and stuck to a glass ramekin I'd poured it into and was the correct measured amount for the beer recipe, I just lowered the entire thing in the boil kettle at the appropriate time, ramekin and all.

Glass was clean and retrieved prior to chilling. Beer turned out pretty good IMO.

Second time I put the pot of sugar in my oven and was able to give the Millard reaction plenty of time to happen without going over temp. Though my sugar was so viscous after it cooled, I still had to immerse the ramekin in the boil kettle. I think I left it in the oven for several hours and it was almost black again.

Beers still in the FV. Can't wait till it's ready, but still another week till bottling I think.

When is it typically added to the mash? flame out?

It's already sugar. No need to add it any earlier than flameout. Although if it's more convenient to add it a little earlier you won't be hurting anything.

Probably could even add it to the FV though keep in mind what cycle the yeast is currently in if you do. And being so thick you'd have to stir it in which is a issue after the krausen.

 

[x3la]

Not sure why the dilution method appeals to you. Nor do I really understand it, other than it seems a way to get darker sugar with some flavors to put in your beer. But that'd never be as dark or as flavorful as you can get making the stuff yourself.

I've made some twice. I basically used the process and ingredients described at this site... Invert Syrups: Making Your Own Simple Sugars for Complex Beers

I went way over hard crack the first time and my invert sugar or whatever it became after reaching hard crack turned into a very hard solid piece of sugar when cooled.... dark and very black. I broke off a piece and tasted it. It had some interesting flavors in it. Since it was solidified and stuck to a glass ramekin I'd poured it into and was the correct measured amount for the beer recipe, I just lowered the entire thing in the boil kettle at the appropriate time, ramekin and all.

Glass was clean and retrieved prior to chilling. Beer turned out pretty good IMO.

Second time I put the pot of sugar in my oven and was able to give the Millard reaction plenty of time to happen without going over temp. Though my sugar was so viscous after it cooled, I still had to immerse the ramekin in the boil kettle. I think I left it in the oven for several hours and it was almost black again.

Beers still in the FV. Can't wait till it's ready, but still another week till bottling I think.


It's already sugar. No need to add it any earlier than flameout. Although if it's more convenient to add it a little earlier you won't be hurting anything.

Probably could even add it to the FV though keep in mind what cycle the yeast is currently in if you do. And being so thick you'd have to stir it in which is a issue after the krausen.

Dilution method appealed as I have all of the ingredients to hand and wanted to brew this week. In one of the posts by Kristen England it was suggested that the Dilution Method works well. I didn't have Demerara or Citric/Lactic Acid to hand.

Ingredients arrive today and I'll be making it from scratch. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Wigglebutts Brewery]

I’ve achieved good results with the “oven method” for invert sugar #1-3, I haven’t gone for #4. I started off with cane sugar, I now use turbinado sugar. This process is from the “Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer” by Ron Pattinson…

I use an enamel 3qt Dutch oven on the range: 2lbs sugar, 2 pints h2o, and 1/2 tsp citric acid. Same process to boil off water to get to 240f. Preheat oven to 250f and place the lidded Dutch oven in the oven. The pre-oven process takes me about 90-100min. Cook for 20-30min for no. 1, 90-120min for no. 2, 150-210min for no. 3 and 240-300min for no. 4. Shooting for color; No. 1, 12-16 SRM, No. 2, 30-35 SRM, No. 3, 60-70 SRM or No. 4, 275-325 SRM.

 

[Wigglebutts Brewery]

I’ve read that some brewers use a saucepan on the range, preheat mason jars for the syrup in the oven phase and of course put a baking sheet under the mason jars. That process seems perfect if you don’t have a Dutch oven and it’s easier to inspect color during the bake time. You can pull jars with good oven mitts and make multiple versions at once. I’ll try this process on my next “run” with a big pot. The down side is the cast Dutch oven ”mellows” the impact of increasing the range heat..

 

[DBhomebrew]

Via the oven method. 12 o'clock is when it transfered to the oven. 9 o'clock is a few hours later. I pulled a jar at each of these moments with the last destined for an RIS.

 

[Miraculix]

Looks like Ron's book doesn't include neutralisation of the acid once the inversion took place. Lots of his later research seems to include this step, often done with chalk. I recommend trying it as it changes the flavour significantly. I'd also recommend trying to work with darker sugars to get the darker colours to find ones own preference. Sugar cane Molasses or dark high quality sugars bring a completely different flavour spectrum that won't be achieved with heat only. After neutralisation of the acid, this flavour spectrum changes quite a bit, so I would include this step if trying the darker sugars version. Both methods, dark sugar/molasses and best only can yield interesting results. I personally prefer by far the dark sugar version.

 

[hotbeer]

I don't think it matters too much what kind of acid you use. Any acid that you'd use for food is likely okay. Even just a squeeze of lemon juice.

I used cream of tartar. Which many of us older types have stuffed away in a back corner of our kitchen cabinet because a recipe ask us to use a 1/8 tsp 20 years ago.

Other than that, water and sugar are the only other absolute ingredients you need. The stuff with fructose is to help keep it from re-crystalizing. And I suppose some of the other things are just for getting a more unique or specific flavor included.

 

[x3la]

Looks like Ron's book doesn't include neutralisation of the acid once the inversion took place. Lots of his later research seems to include this step, often done with chalk. I recommend trying it as it changes the flavour significantly. I'd also recommend trying to work with darker sugars to get the darker colours to find ones own preference. Sugar cane Molasses or dark high quality sugars bring a completely different flavour spectrum that won't be achieved with heat only. After neutralisation of the acid, this flavour spectrum changes quite a bit, so I would include this step if trying the darker sugars version. Both methods, dark sugar/molasses and best only can yield interesting results. I personally prefer by far the dark sugar version.

I'm going to make #1, #2 and #3 using Demerara and Citric Acid (some suggest that Lactic Acid gives a better flavour).

I have Calcium Carbonate. How much is used and at which step?

 

[Wigglebutts Brewery]

I’ve read about using a gram of baking soda to neutralize. Since my city water is pH 8.5 to 9.2 I’ve not neutralized and mash pH has been in a good range. I may reconsider if that effects flavor.

 

[hotbeer]

Looks like Ron's book doesn't include neutralisation of the acid once the inversion took place.

Invert sugar for my porter is less than 10% of the fermentables. Is the little bit of acid used to make the invert sugar going to swing the pH of most brewing waters that much?

I suppose I could run a calculator and find out myself, but I'm still in the infancy of wanting to mess with water chemistry.

 

[Miraculix]

Invert sugar for my porter is less than 10% of the fermentables. Is the little bit of acid used to make the invert sugar going to swing the pH of most brewing waters that much?

I suppose I could run a calculator and find out myself, but I'm still in the infancy of wanting to mess with water chemistry.

Wrong question, it is about the taste of the sugar, not about the ph of the wort! The hot neutralisation step changes the invert's flavour, that's what I'm after.

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve read about using a gram of baking soda to neutralize. Since my city water is pH 8.5 to 9.2 I’ve not neutralized and mash pH has been in a good range. I may reconsider if that effects flavor.

It is not about mash ph. Invert gets added after the mash anyway.