Lactobacillus Plantarum temp tolerance

[IslandLizard]

Yeah.... I know. Waste of money on that one. I regret it a bit but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.

I think I'm going to buy some of these L. Plantarum pills to have on hand for future cases like this.

We all get desperate at times, or feel being backed into a corner. That's when a lot of decisions are made that we look back on with: What.was.I.thinking?

Those pills are probably the best deal in kettle sour world! Amazon got them too, but you need to buy 2 or more jars to make it competitive, that's if you need more jars.

Definitely store in fridge, L. Plantarum doesn't like to be stored at room temps.

I still have some sauerkraut and juice, I'm gonna try that in a gallon "starter."
I also need to feed my lacto/pedio/whatever culture, it's being starved right now. That's what they mean with ropey!

 

[JLump]

I personally don't get why people buy these much more expensive lacto cultures when cheap pills are available and they work freakin great. Maybe someone can fill me in on this? Do they provide some extra complexity or something? It seems more worth while getting ester/phenol complexity from yeast. Am I missing something?

 

[toddo97]

I personally don't get why people buy these much more expensive lacto cultures when cheap pills are available and they work freakin great. Maybe someone can fill me in on this? Do they provide some extra complexity or something? It seems more worth while getting ester/phenol complexity from yeast. Am I missing something?

A lot of the cultures have a blend of Lacto. I believe brevis, for example, is more hop tolerant and may drop a the pH lower than plantarum.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Absolutely. Works well - refrigerate upon arrival, though. 1 cap per 1 gal is suggested.

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active? Like a sourdough mother? I would like to brew a probiotic beer and keep the L. Plantarum alive.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active? Like a sourdough mother? I would like to brew a probiotic beer and keep the L. Plantarum alive.

Between brew days? Yup, use it to make yogurt. Skim milk.

In the beer? Just don't boil it after the bacteria addition & don't use hops. They'll stay alive for at least a few weeks. Longer in the fridge.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active?

You could also make an overbuilt starter and just not pitch the whole thing. Feed it every now and again and keep some Calcium Carbonate in there to buffer the pH.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Will L. Plantarum culture survive being frozen?

 

[RPh_Guy]

You could also make an overbuilt starter and just not pitch the whole thing. Feed it every now and again and keep some Calcium Carbonate in there to buffer the pH.

This is what MTF recommends.

Personally I would use milk as the growth medium instead of wort because it offers one huge advantage... It can't be contaminated by S. cerevisiae.
I'm not sure the MTF author has considered this approach.

@Bigdaddyale
Yes, see here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus
Scroll down to storage. Lots of info.

However if you just want L. plantarum, why not just pitch Lacto pills each time? You can get a 30-count bottle so cheap.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Personally I would use milk as the growth medium instead of wort because it offers one huge advantage... It can't be contaminated by S. cerevisiae.
I'm not sure the MTF author has considered this approach.

Please tell me more about using milk as the growth medium.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Please tell me more about using milk as the growth medium.

Follow any protocol for making yogurt

Basically:
Heat skim milk to 180°F (this re-pasteurizes)
Cool milk to <100°F
Transfer to sanitized jar or other sealable container.
Pitch your bacteria & stir it in.
Let sit between 70-105°F for 4-24 hours. (Put in the oven, turn on the light.) pH between 4-4.5 I think is ideal if you want to monitor it.
Refrigerate.

If you want to eat it, drain the whey.
Stir well before eating or pitching.

Milk has buffering capacity and all the sugar and nutrients your bacteria need. Skim milk has the most sugar and is fat-free, so it's the best milk for Lacto growth and pitching.

Alternately you could use straight lactose to make a starter (with nutrients and calcium carbonate). This shouldn't get contaminated with yeast either. ... But milk seems easier to me.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Follow any protocol for making yogurt

Basically:
Heat skim milk to 180°F (this re-pasteurizes)
Cool milk to <100°F
Transfer to sanitized jar or other sealable container.
Pitch your bacteria & stir it in.
Let sit between 70-105°F for 4-24 hours. (Put in the oven, turn on the light.) pH between 4-4.5 I think is ideal if you want to monitor it.
Refrigerate.

If you want to eat it, drain the whey.
Stir well before eating or pitching.

Milk has buffering capacity and all the sugar and nutrients your bacteria need. Skim milk has the most sugar and is fat-free, so it's the best milk for Lacto growth and pitching.

Alternately you could use straight lactose to make a starter (with nutrients and calcium carbonate). This shouldn't get contaminated with yeast either. ... But milk seems easier to me.

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

Great! Easy peasy.
Even some pro breweries use yogurt cultures to kettle sour. The main thing is that you want it fat free via skim milk... Lipids won't mix well with the beer.

Two pills ought to be enough, assuming that's your source. It won't hurt to pitch more.

If you wanted to maintain a single yogurt culture, mix in the plantarum with your current yogurt and incubate it at whatever temperature you will incubate your souring wort. This will promote growth of the Lacto best suited for growing at that particular temperature.

Happy souring

 

[cmac62]

With doing the mash/souring on one day and boiling/transfer to fermenter on another day, I can easily brew after work. This sounds awesome, don't have to devote an entire weekend day to brewing. My next beer is going to be a kettle sour for sure.

What kind of hop schedule/amounts are people using with these beers. I know some sours don't get any hops at all. Any feedback would be appreciated.

On the same line is what would be a good grain bill. I'm looking to brew 5 gals of a 4-4.5 abv kettle sour.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I've had sour IPAs, so it's not out of the question. When sours don't get any hops, it's typically for 2 reasons:

1. Lactobacillus is very hop intolerant. Even as little as 7IBU+ can be enough to affect its production of lactic acid or inhibit other souring bugs.
2. The given hop recipe doesn't mesh well with hop presence regarding sensory aspects.

You can kettle sour anything, so suggesting a recipe from scratch is going in blind. Are you looking for a light/crisp brew? Dark and stormy?

 

[RPh_Guy]

After souring I add around 5 IBU with a 15 addition of my preferred hops. It adds some nice complexity.

I generally go light & refreshing. 50/50 2-row and wheat. My Lacto sours are generally sour-forward with light notes of malt, yeast fruitiness, and hops.

 

[Kealia]

Great discussion in this thread. I'm currently awaiting my Omega L yeast to do my first kettle-soured Berliner Weiss.
I'm doing no-hops in this first run to set a baseline for what I can make. From there, assuming all goes well on the first batch, I plan to make some dry-hopped sours with Nelson Sauvin and a few other "like" hops to play around.
When I get to that point, my plan is to play around with a 3-5 IBU addition first, then possibly a dry-hop after that.
But not to get ahead of myself. Phase I is a simple, clean, tart BW that we can use to add syrups to for varying versions (Guava BW, Raspberry BW, Huckleberry BW, etc.).

I'll post my experiences as well but it's right inline with others. Pitch the Omega L @ 90 - 95 after a 2-day starter and let it go for 1-2 days before checking ph. I'm targeting the 3.2 - 3.7 range but we'll see how that goes. I plan to drop the wort down to 4.5 before pitching the lacto using lactic acid.

 

[cactusgarrett]

3-5 IBU addition first

I would suggest the first step after the no-hop first step to be more around 10IBU+ in order to have a perceivable difference. My 5-6IBU berliners are tart enough that 5IBU is indistinguishable from 0IBU.

 

[Kealia]

To be honest, I'm hoping that I don't need no stinkin' IBUs at all

I'd be happy if this first batch turns out tart enough to not "need" anything - which always comes down to personal taste, of course. My wife will be the main drinker of these and she doesn't care for hops - generally speaking.

Meaning, I started her off on hefs and wits and then moved to sours of all kinds (BW, Flanders Red, Kettle-soured this nad that). Some are hopped and some are not, but if I can taste the hop presence it's almost a guarantee that she won't like it.

All that being said, it's good to have your information as a point of reference.

 

[monksretreat]

Learning some more about good belly is a good thing.

Started my first sour yesterday using GB, rather than do it in the kettle I decided to moved it into a fermentor with airlock.

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Don't bother, your cold-side equipment is already "contaminated". It'll be ok. I don't think a clean beer with hops could really be infected by plantarum.

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

It is not beneficial to aerate during souring. In the off chance you pick up an infection from aerobic bacteria aerating will worsen the infection, so don't do it

Just pitch your yeast after 24-48 hours or when it reaches your target pH. You can aerate at that point if you want.

 

[monksretreat]

Don't bother, your cold-side equipment is already "contaminated". It'll be ok. I don't think a clean beer with hops could really be infected by plantarum.

Thanks, I feel like I'm in uncharted territory now, what happens, will happen. I see the advantages of keeping it in the kettle... including splashing wort. I did a bit of this.

If I don't reboil then won't the sourness continue after pitching yeast?

 

[Kealia]

I plan on reboiling mine. The only reason I won't sour in my kettle is because I can't hold a temp in it once I pitch the lacto.

Keep in mind that I am working on my first kettle sour as well so I can't tell you if you can skip the second boil or not - but I'm not going to (skip it).

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I don't reboil then won't the sourness continue after pitching yeast?

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

Boiling is optional but lowers risk of infection. The last Berliner I made wasn't boiled at all.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

The yogurt came out great. 95f for 12 hours

 

[toddo97]

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

Boiling is optional but lowers risk of infection. The last Berliner I made wasn't boiled at all.

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it? I did a smoked BW last week and mashed at 152 with a 180 degree mashout. Then a 45 minute boil 3 days later. I would be really nervous never bringing it to boil!

 

[dstockwell]

What are the Goodbelly things I have read about? Are those available at grocery stores? What exactly am I looking for there?

I did my first kettle sour with Goodbelly Mango, it's at Publix in yogurt section. After mashing, boiled for like 2 minutes to pasteurize, chilled to 95F, then pitched 16 oz of Goodbelly mango, and left a room temp for 36 hours. Then boiled as normal with 1/2 ounce Nelson Savuin at 15 minutes, and 1 oz at 2 minutes. Wort going in fermenter seemed sour enough so will have to see. Pitched Wyeast 1332 NW Ale, so should be a 6% kind of fruity tart.

 

[cactusgarrett]

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it?

After souring, instead of your 45min boil you would either just toss in your sacc to start the fermentation, or you could bring the temp up to ~180°F for pasteurization before chilling and pitching sacc. If someone was set on doing a no-boil, raising to pasteurization temps is insurance. Could even use it to impart hop characteristics without as much bittering as a standard boil... similar to a whirlpool/hopstand step.

 

[toddo97]

After souring, instead of your 45min boil you would either just toss in your sacc to start the fermentation, or you could bring the temp up to ~180°F for pasteurization before chilling and pitching sacc. If someone was set on doing a no-boil, raising to pasteurization temps is insurance. Could even use it to impart hop characteristics without as much bittering as a standard boil... similar to a whirlpool/hopstand step.

That's interesting--if nothing else, it would drop your cooling time. I might have to try that next time.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it?

Mash. Mash-out at 170°F. Chill.
Pre-acidify to 4-4.5.
Pitch bacteria & wait.
I pulled a small "decoction" after souring to add hops.
Pitch yeast & wait. Bottle.
Still deciding if it's better than a normal kettle sour. Follow this thread if you want updates.

 

[cactusgarrett]

if nothing else, it would drop your cooling time.

It would save boiling time, as well as reduce the amount of wort lost to evaporation. Both seem trivial, but not for those who chose to care about it. Me? I like the insurance, so I perform at LEAST a 10min boil - allows me to sterilize then use my wort chiller at least.

 

[monksretreat]

So Im getting ready to either pitch yeast or do that 2nd boil! Moving the wort around its sort of a concern but I could not sour in the kettle.

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

If racking back to Stainless kettle, wasn't understanding this risk as its coming to boil anyways and I could sterilize after use if needed?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If racking back to Stainless kettle, wasn't understanding this risk as its coming to boil anyways and I could sterilize after use if needed?

Rinsing your cold-side equipment in bacteria increases the likelihood that a few cells will survive your sanitizing.
Leaving it in the kettle is preferred because everything touched by the bacteria is boiled.

If you step up your cleaning and sanitation processes I think it's fine. Many people keep separate cold-side equipment that contacts bacteria and Brett/wild yeast. Depends on your comfort level.

 

[cmac62]

Learning some more about good belly is a good thing.

Started my first sour yesterday using GB, rather than do it in the kettle I decided to moved it into a fermentor with airlock.

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

Have you already boiled the wort? My understanding of kettle sours is that the lacto is put in before it is boiled and when the right amount of sourness is reached the wort is then boiled as usual, whick kills the lacto and sterilizes the wort. Then you chill and pitch like regular. If you don't kill the lacto it will keep going. I'm no expert for sure, but this is what I plan to do.

 

[monksretreat]

Have you already boiled the wort?

It smells like Mango GB but Soured so it must be time.

No boil - its been decided! now its now up to the starter (Saison) to take it from here. Ive lowered it from 90 to 80 degrees.

 

[cactusgarrett]

If you don't kill the lacto it will keep going.

Sort of. There's a bottom limit that it'll reach before it peters out (like RPh_Guy said, it's around pH 3.0), or hops usage will inhibit lactic acid production.

 

[monksretreat]

it's around pH 3.0), or hops usage will inhibit lactic acid productio

Am I right to assume that the souring slows once yeast is introduced?

I'm thinking of transferring to secondary in a couple days to dry hop (possibly adding brett in as well).

 

[cactusgarrett]

There's good info here. As I understand it, the souring slows more as a result of the low pH and presence of hops, not due to sacc fermentation, since lacto is tolerant of higher alcohol levels. If active lacto is left in a no-boil wort when sacc is pitched, it sounds like it'll continue until its basement of pH is hit.