Lager Fermented Hot

[Bosh]

My favorite Brulosophy post has got to be this one: http://brulosophy.com/2016/04/18/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/ in which they make lager that tastes fine while fermenting it at 28 degrees Celsius.

Inspired by that I gave it a shot with Saflager S-23 instead of the Saflager W-34/70 used by the Brulosophy guys and brewed a batch of hoppy lager at 26 degrees Celsius.

Came out tasting as a good solid pale ale. Not the best thing I've ever brewed, the Columbus hops came out a touch harsh and the beer's pretty murky but it smells great and is delicious. Not a single hint of sulfur, esters, fusels or any other yeast-related flaws I can think of. Was also great getting the "are you a wizard?" face from a fellow home brewer after telling him I fermented it so hot with lager yeast.

Am giving it a try again with a brown ale recipe (leaning heavily on Carabrown malt, which is an incredible malt that often gets ignored because of its deceptive name, it's a light brown malt not a crystal malt and it's awesome). Have revamped my swamp cooler but it's still fermenting at about 20 degrees Celsius. Am looking forward to seeing if I can ferment clean beer (don't really care for Belgians) in my closet in August. From my (so far) limited experience it seems that a lot of strains of lager yeast are less sensitive to temperature than ale yeast.

 

[eadavis80]

If I do an Oktoberfest, which of those 2 strains that you noted - S-23 or W-34/70 would you suggest for a 5-gallon batch finishing around 1.055? Would 1 packet be enough or would you use 2?

 

[Bosh]

If I do an Oktoberfest, which of those 2 strains that you noted - S-23 or W-34/70 would you suggest for a 5-gallon batch finishing around 1.055? Would 1 packet be enough or would you use 2?

Well the Brulosophy guys reported a faint sulfer smell that I don't get but it could be hiding under all the hops. So maybe 23. Only problem with hot S23 was it didn't floc well so make sure to use finings or gelatin.

One pack should be fine. Stuff went off like a rocket with two packs in 8 gallons.

With my very unhoppy brown ale I might get a better sense of yeast flavor.

 

[g-star]

I find it hilarious and sad that one dude with a blog does some half-assed experiment, and people are ready to disregard 200 years of brewing practice and established science.

 

[JohnSand]

And two guys with a bicycle shop invented the airplane. Crazy!

 

[JimRausch]

And two guys with a bicycle shop invented the airplane. Crazy!

John you stole my thunder! I was trying to compose a pithy remark when you came up with the perfect quote. Well done sir!

 

[JimRausch]

Oh, and by the way, I do traditional lagering methods in the winter using Bavarian lager yeast at 48-50*. But I wanted to do a Pilsner this summer, so I did one using California lager yeast at 60*, after I read the Brulospher thread. It turned out great- clear, clean, flavorful. Perfect for a light summer quaff. Sometime in the future I might do a side-by-side exbeeriment of my own, Bavarian at 50* vs. California at 60*.

 

[JohnSand]

Thanks for the report on your methods Jim. My basement is now about 75, and I plan some Belgians and Saison. Brulosopher's exbeeriment and other reports here encourage me to plan lagers in the future with only seasonal and basic temperature control.

 

[Bosh]

I find it hilarious and sad that one dude with a blog does some half-assed experiment, and people are ready to disregard 200 years of brewing practice and established science.

The beer tastes fine. If 200 years of brewing practice and science say one thing and my tongue says something else I'm going to go with my tongue.

Of course temp control is better than no temp control, the Brulosophy guys reported a faint sulfer smell in the hot one that wasn't in the normal one and mine didn't flocc well despite tasting fine.

What I'm taking from this is that if you're going to have a temp that's higher than ideal some lager strains deal with it better than some ale strains.

 

[serum]

There are a few French breweries that use lager yeast at a higher temperature and make nice beer with it. It's a little more fruity than a lager but more like a very clean ale yeast flavour.

Haven't tried it myself though.

 

[Bosh]

There are a few French breweries that use lager yeast at a higher temperature and make nice beer with it. It's a little more fruity than a lager but more like a very clean ale yeast flavour.

Haven't tried it myself though.

Yup, my guess is that historically a big part of the reason that lager was fermented so cold is that people didn't have pure yeast strains. By dialing the temperature down they could make other yeast go dormant so it'd taste like just lager yeast even if there were bits of ale yeast/brett/wild yeast/whatever floating around in the wort which would give you a much cleaner flavor.

Of course if you're making light American lager you're going to notice even pretty small differences in temperature, but it seems that with at least some strains of lager (that don't turn into sulfur bombs at high temp) if you're using a flavorful grain/hop bill you're not going to notice much difference or if you do it'll just be some standard ale fruitiness.

So if you're going to have to ferment beer at temps high enough that it'll start messing with a lot of ale yeasts it might be worth looking at lager yeast.

 

[g-star]

The beer tastes fine. If 200 years of brewing practice and science say one thing and my tongue says something else I'm going to go with my tongue.

Of course temp control is better than no temp control, the Brulosophy guys reported a faint sulfer smell in the hot one that wasn't in the normal one and mine didn't flocc well despite tasting fine.

What I'm taking from this is that if you're going to have a temp that's higher than ideal some lager strains deal with it better than some ale strains.

I guess what it really comes down to is one's ultimate goal in homebrewing.

Want to make something that tastes decent and doesn't require precise control? Then sure, I would concede that some lager strains do better at higher temps than some ale strains.

Want to make a superb lager that hits all the marks for a given style and shows no fermentation flaws, subtle or otherwise? Your process and temp control better be on point (and cold).

 

[JohnSand]

I accept the word of the guys who say their process works well. I'm glad they share their experience.
I never think I can judge a beer I haven't tasted.

 

[Bosh]

I guess what it really comes down to is one's ultimate goal in homebrewing.

Want to make something that tastes decent and doesn't require precise control? Then sure, I would concede that some lager strains do better at higher temps than some ale strains.

Want to make a superb lager that hits all the marks for a given style and shows no fermentation flaws, subtle or otherwise? Your process and temp control better be on point (and cold).

Right. The thing is I'm not trying to make a traditional lager at all just trying to make something a high temps that isn't totally dominated by esters and is fairly clean. Lager yeast fermented hot (at least the strain I'm using) tastes a whole lot cleaner than US05 or Saison yeast fermented hot.

Tastes like a perfectly normal pale ale which is what I wanted, not a traditional lager.

 

[ericbw]

Right. The thing is I'm not trying to make a traditional lager at all just trying to make something a high temps that isn't totally dominated by esters and is fairly clean. Lager yeast fermented hot (at least the strain I'm using) tastes a whole lot cleaner than US05 or Saison yeast fermented hot.



Tastes like a perfectly normal pale ale which is what I wanted, not a traditional lager.

But lager fermented hot is 65. That's hit for lager. Hot for ale is 75.

 

[Bosh]

But lager fermented hot is 65. That's hit for lager. Hot for ale is 75.

Right, what I meant is that if you're going to be inevitably fermenting at 75 degrees, using lager yeast might give you cleaner and better beer than ale yeast.

 

[jtratcliff]

Isn't a steam beer one that ferments at ale temps with a lager yeast?

 

[ericbw]

Right, what I meant is that if you're going to be inevitably fermenting at 75 degrees, using lager yeast might give you cleaner and better beer than ale yeast.

Ah. I don't know. Never did a lager, but I have fridge space to do so now.

 

[Bosh]

Isn't a steam beer one that ferments at ale temps with a lager yeast?

Right but there's still a big difference between fermenting a beer at around 60 degrees (which seems standard for steam beer) and fermenting it at 80 degrees (which is way higher than is standard for most ale yeasts).

 

[Bosh]

Update, I hot fermented (i.e. pushing 80 degrees during active fermentation with S-23 yeast) two lagers this summer and here's how they turned out and what other homebrewers with better palates than mine thought about them:
-Pale Ale-ish beer: tasted pretty good but most yeasty flavor than I want in a pale ale. Some of this was due to there simply being a lot of yeast in the beer (hard to get all the yeast to settle down at summer room temperature) and some of it being due to the heat at which it was fermented. Home brewer who I respect a lot said it tasted like I'd under-pitched it.
-Brown Ale-ish beer (almost no hops, 1.065 OG, lots of carabrown and a touch of melanoidin malt): with so few hops to cover up off flavors came out with the estery taste you sometimes get in cheapo SE Asian Lager. Not terrible but not that good either, so I stuck most of it in the back of the closet as soon as next beer carbed up and mostly forgot about it. Just cracked open a bottle last night. It was INCREDIBLE. One of the best beers I've ever made. The esters had settled down to a pleasant English-style fruitiness and there'd been a little oxidation to bring out a touch of sherry that really worked. Tasted like an excellent stepped down barley wine. Guests were holding cups upside down over their mouths to get the last drops out before going on to another beer it was so good. Really didn't expect that.