LODO Sour beers

[maisch]

Has anyone done a sour using the LODO process?

I think there's a couple of things working against the concept:

1.) Lengthy aging and maturation process, sometimes even the souring process
2.) Oxidative qualities contribution to the taste

IMO, nothing that can't be overcome.

 

[Big Monk]

Has anyone done a sour using the LODO process?

I think there's a couple of things working against the concept:

1.) Lengthy aging and maturation process, sometimes even the souring process
2.) Oxidative qualities contribution to the taste

IMO, nothing that can't be overcome.

IMO, if there was a style where LOB is a total waste, it's a sour beer.

I can only speak for myself, but I imagine all nuance flavors would be dwarfed by the souring.

 

[maisch]

IMO, if there was a style where LOB is a total waste, it's a sour beer.

I can only speak for myself, but I imagine all nuance flavors would be dwarfed by the souring.

I tend/want to agree but there's a little curiosity left in me that says maybe there'd be some nuance...

 

[Big Monk]

I tend/want to agree but there's a little curiosity left in me that says maybe there'd be some nuance...

Don't take my word for it. I hate sour beers so I am obviously biased.

With that said, I think you'd be hard pressed to get the nuance you would in a normal beer after the souring process.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Anything that's meant to age. So I would put Barleywines and Old Ales into that camp. Fresh flavors and aged beers are mutually exclusive goals.

I don't think it's necessarily sour processes though. I don't know enough about THP formation but perhaps it could be of use in kettle sours (although oxygen while kettle souring leading to butyric production has largely been disproven).

Now it's worth pointing out that the mindset still has value even in aging. While oxygen ingress is necessary for a traditional barrel aged sour, too much causes problems.

But that's no different than normal cold side processes should be LODO or otherwise, where in an a perfect world cold side oxygen would be zero. I wouldn't worry about hot side though, which is the point of LODO.

 

[schematix]

I don't think it'd hurt to try it. I find the wort from low oxygen brewing to be vastly superior in terms of flavor to traditional methods. Hop flavors as well.

You may end up negating the benefits with an extended aging in certain vessels. Maybe you can do that in a a low oxygen environment such as a sealed and purged keg?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Every time I make Sauegut I make a low oxygen sour beer.

 

[maisch]

Every time I make Sauegut I make a low oxygen sour beer.

Absolutely and I'd imagine you've tasted it, not that you drink it on a regular basis.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Oh I taste it all the time. It's like lemony cheerios.

 

[maisch]

Well sure but you're not sitting down and having a glass of sauergut, though I suppose it wouldn't hurt?!?!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Oh I taste it all the time. It's like lemony cheerios.

Cheerios as in...THP?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Actually it’s the tradition to have sauergut for breakfast while mashing in the first batch of the day.

No Cheerios/cereal in the form of low oxygen wort. Not THP.

Have to remember SG is never boiled.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Actually it’s the tradition to have sauergut for breakfast while mashing in the first batch of the day.

No Cheerios/cereal in the form of low oxygen wort. Not THP.

Have to remember SG is never boiled.

Got it.

Cheerios is just a pretty specific term that also somehow perfectly describes the THP flavor. Having not brewed/tasted specifically low oxygen wort I'll take your word for it. The term I've heard was more Grape Nuts, and the first wort on my work system I'd say Bran Flakes but a colleague says Grape Nuts, but our system is NOT a low oxygen system (but does have more expressive wort than my home system, likely just scale).

I know oxygen is partially responsible for THP with Brett. I have no idea with lactic bacteria.

As I said, I know the flavor. Not as up to speed on the causes/controls apart from brief bits here and there.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yea grape nuts is a good descriptor. I am unsure of the size of your commercial system but you must be benefitting from square cube, maybe you dough in with really warm water as well (lowering do). Low oxygen wort has the same flavor character you describe, however it’s not just a hint or nuance. It’s exploding with the grape nuts/fresh grain character. When executed properly it is very prominent in the finished product as well.

Expressive was also a great description. What we do trues to express the most of that flavor. I am glad you have a frame a reference as to what lower DO on the hot side can do.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yea grape nuts is a good descriptor. I am unsure of the size of your commercial system but you must be benefitting from square cube, maybe you dough in with really warm water as well (lowering do). Low oxygen wort has the same flavor character you describe, however it’s not just a hint or nuance. It’s exploding with the grape nuts/fresh grain character. When executed properly it is very prominent in the finished product as well.

40hl. And yes, that was my thought (both scale and water temp, HLT is continuously at 190, but blend water isn't deaerated at all).

I wouldn't call it a hint. It's pretty strong. But based on what I've read, given that the mash aroma is strong as well (although again my home system it's stronger, see above), probably still pales in comparison.

 

[Die_Beerery]

There is a 60hl system close to me who brews German style beers they do nearly the same things as you and make sure and underlet/ gentle transfer everything. The beers are easily identifiable with the amount of fresh grain in the finished beer. It’s easily the freshest and best tasting commercial beer around. That being said however, my system and methods produce a beer with more defined and fresher flavors ( I purge all vessels with N2, and everything I do is blanketed in n2 and sealed deaerated water, etc. true low oxygen ).

But it’s very acceptable beer for a non “low oxygen” setup and my go to when out. Though they kind of suck at packaging. But don’t we all. In kegs though it’s good stuff.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The OP is banned but I'm continuing the thread.

Has anyone done a sour using the LODO process?

Yes.

The souring process is simple:
Use no hops.
Add Lactobacillus plantarum with your yeast.
Ferment at 65°F or higher.
Add hops after souring, if desired (I add hop tea at packaging to help avoid oxygen).

Easy Peasy. ... Kettle souring is off the table.

I have not experimented with low-oxygen Brett beers yet, but that is certainly on the agenda.
They will need to be made with an accelerated process, since aging will probably undo the LOB benefits. However, Brett seems to be far better at scavenging oxygen than Sacc, so I'm excited to try it.

Oxidative qualities contribution to the taste

This is a little more concerning ... The resulting beer may be a little more bland in terms of yeast flavor, but there's only one way to find out.

Cheers