LoDo Techniques

[mongoose33]

Yes, I did stir to ensure temp was consistent throughout. I used a copper immersion chiller. I know I've read something about copper releasing metals or something, but it's all I really have...


EDIT: I'm going to be batch sparging, but plan to boil/chill/underlet as well.

I use Brewtan-B to mitigate the Fenton Reactions that come from the use of copper. I bought a stainless immersion chiller so I could avoid using my copper Jaded Hydra. But BtB is a way to combat that. You can get it online, it's pretty inexpensive. I use something like 1.5 grams in the strike water, and when I added to the boil at 16 minutes (just before immersing the copper chiller), I think i used 1 gram.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Nope, not recirculating. I say murky, but I guess a better adjective would be "milky" or whiter than normal. I don't think it will effect anything, it's just weird or different shall I say!?

What bisulfates would you recommend? And how much? I don't think I'm going to do it impulsively on this mash, but just curious for future brew

Thanks!

Sodium metabisulphate or SMB for short. Its pretty easy to calculate at least in metric.

volume x parts per million required / 1000

So if you mash with say 15 liters of water and you want 25ppm of SMB its simply

15x25/1000 = 0.37 grams

You might want to take into consideration the sodium and sulphate content of your water too as SMB (as far as i can discern) adds both sodium and sulphate although in what degree and what ratio I cannot say. Recommended doses vary, I use about 25ppm for mashing and 10ppm for sparging.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I use Brewtan-B to mitigate the Fenton Reactions that come from the use of copper.

Can you tell a difference with using it? Do you skim it out at the end of the boil or anything? I could swear I saw a thread where it was turning blue or something and people said they were skimming it out or something. Maybe I'm imagining this!?

Sodium metabisulphate or SMB for short. Its pretty easy to calculate at least in metric.

volume x parts per million required / 1000

So if you mash with say 15 liters of water and you want 25ppm of SMB its simply

15x25/1000 = 0.37 grams

You might want to take into consideration the sodium and sulphate content of your water too as SMB (as far as i can discern) adds both sodium and sulphate although in what degree and what ratio I cannot say. Recommended doses vary, I use about 25ppm for mashing and 10ppm for sparging.

Thanks for this. Easy enough. I was wondering about the water profile adjustment needed when using it. Do you adjust your water profile with this in mind or do you ignore the addition? Any discernible difference between SMB and KMB?

 

[MSK_Chess]

Can you tell a difference with using it? Do you skim it out at the end of the boil or anything? I could swear I saw a thread where it was turning blue or something and people said they were skimming it out or something. Maybe I'm imagining this!?



Thanks for this. Easy enough. I was wondering about the water profile adjustment needed when using it. Do you adjust your water profile with this in mind or do you ignore the addition? Any discernible difference between SMB and KMB?

Actually when using Brewtan B it turns the protein break a kind of salmon pinkish colour, with a good boil it sinks almost immediately to the bottom, there is no need to skim anything, i don't anyway. I cannot remember the ratio of how much sodium or sulphate is added when using SMB but if you are adding additions like calcium sulphate or magnesium sulphate you might want to take the added dosage of sulphate and sodium from SMB into consideration. Some people leave out adding calcium sulphate (gypsum) altogether when using SMB but I dont as my water contains hardly any sulphate as it is.

 

[probablynotnick]

I use Brewtan-B to mitigate the Fenton Reactions that come from the use of copper. I bought a stainless immersion chiller so I could avoid using my copper Jaded Hydra. But BtB is a way to combat that. You can get it online, it's pretty inexpensive. I use something like 1.5 grams in the strike water, and when I added to the boil at 16 minutes (just before immersing the copper chiller), I think i used 1 gram.

I didn't think copper facilitated Fenton Reactions... I know it's oxidative and can facilitate some wonky flavors if it's at too high a concentration. Not trying to be confrontational but as this thread is "science-y" I thought I'd ask.

Thanks for posting your experiments/experiences guys

 

[MSK_Chess]

Can you tell a difference with using it? Do you skim it out at the end of the boil or anything? I could swear I saw a thread where it was turning blue or something and people said they were skimming it out or something. Maybe I'm imagining this!?



Thanks for this. Easy enough. I was wondering about the water profile adjustment needed when using it. Do you adjust your water profile with this in mind or do you ignore the addition? Any discernible difference between SMB and KMB?

I asked in the science forum and although i don't really fully understand the answer it appears that 25ppm or 25mg/l of SMB will give 25.25 ppm of sulphate and 6ppm of sodium. Its probably easier simply to use 10 as a base. 10mg/l or 10ppm of SMB will give 10.1ppm of Sulphate and 2.4ppm of Sodium.

Hope this helps when using SMB in brewing to calculate the added sulphate and sodium.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ate-how-much-sulphate-how-much-sodium.651800/

 

[zeptrey]

Anyone here have a go to step mashing schedule they use for their beers?

 

[schematix]

Anyone here have a go to step mashing schedule they use for their beers?

Careful trying to use a standard step mash for all grains. What works for one may not work for another. A lot to do with gelatinization temps.

Lately I’ve been doing 146 for 40, 162 for 30, and 171 for 10 and I get 100% conversion.

A good cover all your bases mash, but long, is 144 for 20, 148 for 20, 152 for 10-20, 162 for 30 and 171 for 10.

 

[aeviaanah]

Careful trying to use a standard step mash for all grains. What works for one may not work for another. A lot to do with gelatinization temps.

Lately I’ve been doing 146 for 40, 162 for 30, and 171 for 10 and I get 100% conversion.

A good cover all your bases mash, but long, is 144 for 20, 148 for 20, 152 for 10-20, 162 for 30 and 171 for 10.

+1. In addition to figuring out what works for you, try taking gravity readings during and or after each step and determine the amount of conversion each step provides. This will give insight on whether you can move forward (or more time is needed) with any particular step.

 

[schematix]

+1. In addition to figuring out what works for you, try taking gravity readings during and or after each step and determine the amount of conversion each step provides. This will give insight on whether you can move forward (or more time is needed) with any particular step.

+1. I didn't explain the why in my original post....

You can tell an amazing amount about whats going on in the mash and your grain by taking gravity measurements *during* the mash. After you do this a few times you'll understand the mash a lot better.

To highly a little those mash steps

144-148 beta amylase is most active. But its far more active at 144 than 148. However, if your gel temp is more than 144-148, well you need different grain. You should expect at least 85% of your expected extract after your beta rest. I usually see that amount after roughly 20 minutes. If you don't, bump the temp by a few degrees.
152 is a rest that will get you more fermentability. For an IPA or a nice crisp Pils even a short rest here will get you a few extra AA%. Not strictly required but for a crisper style can help.
162 is the alpha rest and what gives you the great head and body that most thin homebrew lacks. 30 minutes here is how you get that thick rich creamy foam (assuming other brewing practices are good too, but this is your foundation)
171 is your mash out. helps with lautering and foam.

 

[zeptrey]

Nice breakdown. Thanks!

 

[SRJHops]

Carbonation tabs instead of bottling bucket?

I've been plagued by oxidation in my NEIPAs, which I know can happen easily with the style. I'm not quite ready to switch to kegging and I don't have a Co2 tank. I've been bottling into 22 oz bombers from 6 gallon batches.

I am going to try a few new things to reduce oxidation next time, and looking for thoughts/comments.

1. Primary for 14 days, no transfer to secondary, then bottle on day 14. (I'll likely hit FG in the first week, so in theory I could bottle on day 10, but it's easier for me to brew and bottle on weekends.)

2. Dry hop (Commando) on day 1-2 (high krausen) and day 4-5 (also Commando). Will not open fermenter during week 2.

3. Fill bottles straight from the primary fermenter and use carbonation tabs instead of the bottling bucket. I have not seen any mention of people using the tabs, but it seems like a great way to skip the bottling bucket. Perhaps not precise carbonation, but for this style avoiding oxidation seems more important.

I've always used the oxygen absorbing caps...

I know this is all cold side, but I am reasonably sure this is where I am getting almost all of the oxidation.

Thoughts?

 

[Iseneye]

I haven't bottled for years but I have read about the guys on the low oxygen website doing it. I believe they are bottling when there is still gravity points left during fermentation and bottle spunding.

I don't see carbonation tabs being any better than using a bottling bucket. With your setup the beer will be oxidized either way.

I went away from bottling for convenience but also because my beers were fading so quickly due to oxidation. I would suggest that you can't get a good stable NEIPA via bottling. It is a common comment I have seen on here where people have faded NEIPA when bottling.

 

[friarsmith]

I have heard through the grave vine that NEIPA's do not fare well in bottle conditioning, but I cannot comment from experience as I have never personally brewed the style. Filling direct from primary (on this and many other styles) shouldn't be a problem as long as you can prevent clogs and avoid pulling a ton of trub.

Instead of carb tabs, consider purchasing a cheap children's medicine dropper from your local drug store and dispensing 0.75 to 1.0 teaspoon of your normal bottling sugar & water mix into each bottle before filling. Eg: I usually dissolve 5oz bottling sugar into ~8oz boiling water. This makes ~50 individual teaspoon 'servings' which would cover ~50 12oz bottles in a 5-6 gallon batch. A small measuring spoon would probably work as well but avoiding drips/spills might be tricky. Line up your sanitized bottles, squirt in the sugar mix, place a sanitized bottle cap over the spout to cover until the bottle's turn comes up, then get busy filling.

I only bottle condition my annual barleywine these days, but this method has worked great for me in the past on numerous other styles. I really like it because 1) it doesn't require stirring beer in a bottling bucket, 2) ensures uniform carbonation between bottles, and 3) allows for fairly precise control of carbonation... for a hefe I might use 1.25 tsp per bottle, and for an English Mild 0.5 to 0.75. 1tsp per bottle is a good baseline for most beers in my experience...

 

[SRJHops]

You might be correct - I might have to give up on bottling NEIPA's. Of course, I think it's fair to say that all homebrews get some oxidation, so the question is really about how to minimize it.

For NEIPA's, it begs the question of what causes them to become oxidized so quickly? Is it the extensive whirlpool hops, the bio-transformation hops, or the recipe? I did read that flaked oats can oxidize easily... I wonder if other flaked adjuncts do too? Because I really could care less about the "haze" from the flaked adjuncts -- what I want is the flavor, like Toppling Goliath's Sosus for example.

 

[SRJHops]

I've got some medicine droppers, so I like the idea of using them to use dissolved sugar. Just worried about getting the right amount in each bomber. I am doing 6 gallon batches and bottling into 22 oz bombers. Any advice on how much sugar to boil (and water) and how much per bottle? I tend to get around 24 bombers.

 

[friarsmith]

I generally bottle 22oz bombers at 1.5x the 12oz size. Carbonation gets a little more efficient as bottle size increases. For example, when I carbonate a 5 gal keg with bottling sugar, I usually use 3oz sugar vs 5oz if the batch was all bottled...

 

[mongoose33]

I generally bottle 22oz bombers at 1.5x the 12oz size. Carbonation gets a little more efficient as bottle size increases. For example, when I carbonate a 5 gal keg with bottling sugar, I usually use 3oz sugar vs 5oz if the batch was all bottled...

My reaction in reading this was...hmmmm.

Any idea what the physics/biology behind this would be? Is it the increased head space? Something else?

 

[friarsmith]

Perhaps the relationship between volume of liquid and head space. I'm not exactly sure.

 

[Bilsch]

Instead of a bottling bucket or carb drops you might look at fermenter priming then bottle spunding.

 

[SRJHops]

Fermenter priming is interesting...never heard of that. How do I mix in the sugar properly? The trub is on the bottom of the fermenter still. I'd also be exposing the beer to some oxygen, of course.

Could you give my a brief explanation of how to bottle spund? Thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

You just dissolve the sugar in a small amount of water, give it a quick boil in the microwave and pour through the airlock port. The ferment will restart while the solution mixes in and when you see activity in the airlock go ahead and transfer to your bottles straight out of the fermenter. Any oxygen that gets in there should be consumed by the yeast.

 

[SRJHops]

Cool, I will give it a try. A few quick questions:

1. Do you stir it in to make sure the sugar distributes evenly?
2. Why is it important to wait for the fermentation to restart? I assume it's to push out the oxygen that got into the fermenter?
3. How long does it take for the fermentation to restart? Are you saying later that day, or a few days?

Thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

No don't stir or muck about in your fermenter because your trying to minimize the amount of oxygen that's getting in there. The priming solution will mix in on its own as long as it's not too viscious so use at least 3x water by weight as sugar and pour it in warm from the DO boil. Time to restart depends on how long since the yeast went to sleep. If it's only been a few days then it will restart within an hour or two. If it's been weeks then it will take a while, days even. And if that's the case then you are well past saving the batch as anything close to lodo. The reason to wait for activity is then you know you have active yeast in suspension providing you with some amount of protection from the oxygen you will pick up during transfer and bottling. I have done this procedure many times and it works very well.

 

[SRJHops]

Got it - thank you! Will use 3X the usual water. I usually use one cup of water, BTW. For my last 6 gallon batch I used 5.5 ounces of corn sugar, and it seems to have carbonated my current (fairly oxidized but drinkable) NEIPA quite well.

Not sure if you saw my schedule above, but I am bottling on day 14. One week in primary with the dry hop charge on day 2 (which was yesterday); second week in the fermenter to let things settle; bottle on day 14. So, that would be 7-10 days since the yeast went to sleep.

Now my main concern is that the fermenter spigot will get jammed when I bottle. Not worried about the yeast cake, but I dumped in a ton of hops (commando style). I've used weighted bags in the past, but wanted to see what happens when I just drop the hops on to the krausen.

 

[Bilsch]

You're welcome.
Just one correction: I checked my notes and it seems that I had reduced the water/sugar ratio from 3x to 1.8x
So that means if your going to use 5.5 oz of the dextrose as the priming sugar, which is 155gm, then multiply 155 by 1.8 which is 279. So you will want to dissolve your 155gm of sugar in 279gm (279ml) of water.
My apologies for changing to metric but as you can see in this case it's easier to work with. Good luck with your spigot.

 

[SRJHops]

Bottled up my 4th attempt at a NEIPA last night. As I noted above, I've been struggling with oxidation (I don't keg yet), so I did a big dry hop charge on day 2, then didn't open the fermenter again. No transfer to secondary. I bottled right from the fermenter on day 14, using sugar tablets in the bombers.

Next time I am going to do what Bilsch suggests and put boiled sugar water right into the fermenter, but I had the sugar tabs so I thought I'd try them.

FG was perfect at 1.010, and the taste was good (used Citra, Mozaic, and Simcoe). It looked a lot less oxidized, so that's good news.

I did struggle with hops clogging up the spigot, so that will be my last commando-style dry hop -- going back to the weighted bags. I also saw a larger diameter bottling wand at the homebrew store recently -- wondering if that would work better?

Until I get a Co2 canister and/or start kegging, I can't think of any other cold-side lodo techniques to try, but open to suggestions. (To be honest, I am not sure I really buy the impact of hot-side oxidation, but I do stir the whirlpool gently.)

 

[mongoose33]

Hot side is the mash side, not after the boil. You want oxygen in the wort after the boil, the yeast use it.

 

[SRJHops]

Sorry, I was combining thoughts and maybe should not have thrown in that hot side mention. So it's just about the mash? I thought it was important to be gentle with the whirlpool too? I swirl it every 5 minutes.

I have a 40 minute hop stand and whirlpool for my NEIPA starting at 175, so in theory that could introduce oxygen. But maybe that really doesn't matter?

The oxidation seems to be coming more from the cold side, especially the transfer to secondary, but also in the bottling bucket.

 

[mongoose33]

Sorry, I was combining thoughts and maybe should not have thrown in that hot side mention. So it's just about the mash? I thought it was important to be gentle with the whirlpool too? I swirl it every 5 minutes.

I have a 40 minute hop stand and whirlpool for my NEIPA starting at 175, so in theory that could introduce oxygen. But maybe that really doesn't matter?

The oxidation seems to be coming more from the cold side, especially the transfer to secondary, but also in the bottling bucket.

No, it's not just the mash. To really do this according to LODO doctrine, you need to deoxygenate the strike water, eliminate copper, purge the lines if you're recirculating, use a mash cap (to prevent exposure of the mash to atmospheric oxygen as much as possible), add some K-meta or P-meta as an o2 scavenger (campden tablets work, I use 1.5 of them, crushed), avoid splashing if you stir, when you rack to the boil kettle use a lauter cap (same idea as mash cap).

The idea on the hot side is to prevent oxidation from destroying malt flavors. Once the boil is complete, there should be no oxygen in the wort--it's been driven off by the boiling. While you may get some while whirlpooling or a hop stand, it depends on how hot the wort is. The hotter it is, the less O2 it can absorb.

I've been diddling with LODO now for almost a year; it's got a lot of moving parts, it's a fiddly thing. In the end, one must decide if the result is worth it. Come to find out that some people are very sensitive to oxidation of the malt flavors, others not so much.

I've had enough success to know there's something there. I've brewed a couple of Pils whose flavors were just stunningly up front--in fact, almost so much that I had to decide if I liked it. I have a friend with a great palate who's my go-to for seeing if he can pick up off-flavors in my beers, he was most complimentary of the pils.

As for me...I didn't really like it all that much. I drank it, but there are other beers I'd rather have. That said, I've done an Amber using LODO techniques that knocked my socks off. Haven't been able to reproduce the damned thing, either. Close, but the socks stayed on.

 

[SRJHops]

Hop Tea instead of Dry Hopping?

Has anyone tried adding hops to the priming sugar before bottling? Plan would be to add X amount of hops to sugar water once it cools to 170, then steep for 20 mins, then add to the bottles via dropper (or dump into the fermenter).

If you've tried it, I am wondering how many ounces of hops you used? I was planning on 4-6 ounces, but maybe that is too much?

I am brewing a NEIPA. My experiment with a 3-week grain to glass version with LODO techniques worked! I added a big dry hop charge on Day 2, and then didn't open the fermenter again until I bottled directly from the fermenter into bottles with sugar tabs. (My only real issue was that I put the dry hops in via commando, and they kept clogging the spigot and the bottling wand - will bag 'em next time. Also thinking about getting a larger diameter wand)

It's the best version so far, with very little oxidation, but I want to keep pushing for more aroma -- the flavor is about where I want it, but it needs more aroma that would've come from a 2nd dry hop charge 3 days before bottling. But I don't have Co2 and I did not want to open the fermenter and expose the beer to oxygen.

So, thinking hop tea to add some more aroma. Thoughts?

 

[jam095]

I am all set to start spunding, but have several questions about it before I do (since it is tried and true by this group, I wont call them "concerns").

What I don't understand is, if I transfer to the keg for spunding with approx. 4 gravity points left, is that not a diacetyl issue? Typically when I taste diacetyl in someone's homebrew, I make the suggestion to leave it on the yeast for longer.

On a separate note- I bought a cool new toy for my Speidel fermenter from NorCal brewing that many of you are probably familiar with. It is a "Gas In" post, with an adjustable PRV that replaces your airlock. For liability purposes, they state that they use it at 3-5 PSI with no issues, but don't accept liability for any incidents related to over-pressurizing. My question is, if I use this instead of my true spunding valve and just ferment under low pressure (3-5 psi) the entire way, will this affect the yeast viability/quality for re-pitching?

 

[schematix]

What I don't understand is, if I transfer to the keg for spunding with approx. 4 gravity points left, is that not a diacetyl issue? Typically when I taste diacetyl in someone's homebrew, I make the suggestion to leave it on the yeast for longer.

Pitch the right amount of yeast and you won't have diacetyl. Simple as that.

My question is, if I use this instead of my true spunding valve and just ferment under low pressure (3-5 psi) the entire way, will this affect the yeast viability/quality for re-pitching?

My experience fermenting under pressure was that it didn't help anything, and maybe hurt things a little.

 

[jam095]

Pitch the right amount of yeast and you won't have diacetyl. Simple as that.

Thanks for the reply. I have only tasted diacetyl in one lager I've ever done, however it was my understanding that diacetyl was created in all fermentations, but just a matter of how well the yeast clean them up..


My experience fermenting under pressure was that it didn't help anything, and maybe hurt things a little.

 

[schematix]

Thanks for the reply. I have only tasted diacetyl in one lager I've ever done, however it was my understanding that diacetyl was created in all fermentations, but just a matter of how well the yeast clean them up..

It's most prominent in under pitched lagers.

 

[MaxStout]

Some anecdotal data on the trifecta additions for a hoppy beer. I brewed a 10 gallon batch of IPA mid-April, dry hopped then bottled early May.

I added 3g Brewtan B and about 1.5g each of sodium meta and ascorbic to the strike water (15 gal), then 1.5g Brewtan B to the boil (15 mins). I didn't employ many other LODO methods, aside from slow boil, minimum splashing, careful racking. But I use a copper IC.

After 3 weeks conditioning I put all bottles in the fridge. After 2 months in bottles, the bitterness, flavor and aroma are still very defined. No muting of flavor, no perceivable oxidation off-flavors. IPAs I've brewed in the past were muted within a month or so, and developed the tell-tale cardboard flavor soon after.

I'm encouraged by this and will repeat the additions for future beers.

 

[NateBrew]

Did you strip the oxygen from your water with either pre boiling or the yeast method? That, along with the trifecta, go a long way toward the reservation of the wort. If not, the yeast method is really simple and quite effective.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Some anecdotal data on the trifecta additions for a hoppy beer. I brewed a 10 gallon batch of IPA mid-April, dry hopped then bottled early May.

I added 3g Brewtan B and about 1.5g each of sodium meta and ascorbic to the strike water (15 gal), then 1.5g Brewtan B to the boil (15 mins). I didn't employ many other LODO methods, aside from slow boil, minimum splashing, careful racking. But I use a copper IC.

After 3 weeks conditioning I put all bottles in the fridge. After 2 months in bottles, the bitterness, flavor and aroma are still very defined. No muting of flavor, no perceivable oxidation off-flavors. IPAs I've brewed in the past were muted within a month or so, and developed the tell-tale cardboard flavor soon after.

I'm encouraged by this and will repeat the additions for future beers.

Just an FYI, I am very close to you ( about 30 minutes away) You are more than welcome to come over and sample/ ask any questions you have.

 

[Robert65]

Did you strip the oxygen from your water with either pre boiling or the yeast method? That, along with the trifecta, go a long way toward the reservation of the wort. If not, the yeast method is really simple and quite effective.

The yeast method is just too easy not to do it, no matter what other procedures you have in place. If you're doing any water treatment, you're not adding any extra effort.

 

[Brooothru]

The yeast method is just too easy not to do it, no matter what other procedures you have in place. If you're doing any water treatment, you're not adding any extra effort.

Need some help with basic math.

Sad to admit, it's been over 50 years since I struggled through college math. I'm stuck in an endless Do Loop (been 50 years since I did FORTRAN coding as well) and can't figure out where I'm making my error. It's not Diffy Q. Not even advanced calculus. We're talking basic algebra. Somebody help bail this 70 year old brain out of dementia.

Background: Trying to determine how much additional sodium (PPM) will be needed to account for in a brewing water calculation. From the LoDO brewing website, I know that 1 mg NaMeta solute in 1 liter of water results in 24 PPM additional sodium. My target volume is 23 liters, strike volume ~29.5 liters. I add .65 grams of NaMeta to my strike water to scavenge DO prior to mash-in. How many PPM does this increase the amount of sodium in both the strike water and final concentration in post boil wort? Solve. {Please show work}.

Brooo Brother