New AG brewer seeking advice

[griffi]

Hey all,
So I've done 3 five gal AG brews and they've turned out great and I'm inspired to improve my process. My equipment is minimal: a 10 gal kettle, a 10 gal igloo MT. I don't have a stand and brew on back porch with a propane burner. So I batch sparge and lift things up and down. I look at the directions others on HBT have gone with equipment and techniques. Many impressive and expensive setup! I don't think I'm ever going to want to do more than 5 gal batches. I do think I'll want to do more complicated step mashing however. I've read about biab but don't see myself going in that direction. Expense and storage space are major concerns. I guess my immediate desire would be some sort of HLT to make the brew day easier. If you were just starting out like me, what direction would you go with equipment?

 

[Gavin C]

Hey all,
So I've done 3 five gal AG brews and they've turned out great and I'm inspired to improve my process. My equipment is minimal: a 10 gal kettle, a 10 gal igloo MT. I don't have a stand and brew on back porch with a propane burner. So I batch sparge and lift things up and down. I look at the directions others on HBT have gone with equipment and techniques. Many impressive and expensive setup! I don't think I'm ever going to want to do more than 5 gal batches. I do think I'll want to do more complicated step mashing however. I've read about biab but don't see myself going in that direction. Expense and storage space are major concerns. I guess my immediate desire would be some sort of HLT to make the brew day easier. If you were just starting out like me, what direction would you go with equipment?

I'd invest in the cold side of things first. Fermentation control with a chest freezer and STC1000 ~$200. Best money you'll spend on homebrew I reckon.

 

[Sammy86]

I'd invest in the cold side of things first. Fermentation control with a chest freezer and STC1000 ~$200. Best money you'll spend on homebrew I reckon.

Couldn't agree more...being able to control ferm temps has my brews so much better. Plus the addition of a stir starter (thanks BIL)!

 

[griffi]

Sorry, should've mentioned I already use temp controlled fermentation (it's a North Carolina porch if you know what I mean with a small chest freezer for the ferm chamber and a larger one for the kegs)

 

[Gavin C]

A pump, silicon tubing and some nice SS fittings to make your brew day easier is another good option IMO. ~$200

Another thing that may benefit you would be look at making a stir-plate and getting a 5L erlenmeyer flask if making big ales or lagers is something you want to do. Lots of easy and cheap options in the build threads.

5L flask, 3lb DME, parts for stir-plate and stir bar ~$100

Yeast management and harvesting is fun, cost effective and will likely be to your beer's benefit.

My 2c

 

[ericbw]

I was going to say pumps and hoses to eliminate the heavy lifting. It's definitely a pricier investment, but it sounds like you have the basic set up (which is the cheap part).

 

[griffi]

I've done starters (though currently only have a 2L flask). I believe the weak spot in my procedures is not having an HLT and using gravity (read my back) for transferring wort. I've read (but don't fully understand) about recirculating and I've thought a little about an electric HLT or induction cooktop - but with all that entails, I start thinking maybe save up for the grainfather. I guess the cheap short term solution is just get another pot and burner for an HLT and safely jury rig some gravity into the equation.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Wondering why you think BIAB is expensive and takes up space.All you need is one pot,so that's cheap.I store everything in the pot and it takes up minimal space.

 

[J-Rock44]

I've got a basic set up as well, with a 10gal kettle doing all the work paired with a pump and (2) 10 gal coolers. I heat my strike H20 about 10* higher than needed (heat loss due to unconditioned HLT and some loss during the transfer) and pump that up to the HLT. when I add that to the Mash Tun, just below it, and as the mash is resting , I prep my sparge H20 and pump that back up to the HTL. It was a bit over $200, but defiantly worth it. Not only for my back, but safety as well, since the HTL's base is at 5'-0". I think I could also adapt the pump with a valve to pump wort up to the mash tun so I can do Decoction Mash if desired. Its really a customizable addition that I have yet to tap. I will try and attach a pic of my initial prototype setup, which not much has changed, just a little more organized now.

Best of luck.

~Cheerw

 

[k1ngl1ves]

If you're looking for a good storage solution, google "brew ladder". It's a great idea, and fairly easy to make. It's definitely something on my list to try, especially with all the kids toys starting to fill my damn garage. Grumblegrumblegrumblegrumble.

A pump would also make life easier too...

 

[griffi]

Wondering why you think BIAB is expensive and takes up space.All you need is one pot,so that's cheap.I store everything in the pot and it takes up minimal space.

I actually didn't mean to imply biab was costly or took a lot of storage space. Those were just general considerations overall. In fact biab seems to be a very cost and space efficient option. I just don't think it's for me.

 

[griffi]

I'm thinking a pump might be a good next investment. Wondering though why do I need to use a ladder or something if I've got a pump to move the water and wort sideways...

 

[specharka]

I'm thinking a pump might be a good next investment. Wondering though why do I need to use a ladder or something if I've got a pump to move the water and wort sideways...

I've done all grain for 3 years, never saw the need for a pump.

Unless you are planning on investing in a RIMS or HERMS system, a pump is pointless.

I would recommend an immersion chiller if you don't use one yet. If you do, I'm with the yeast starter guys. A stir plate and 5L Erlenmeyer flask are a necessity for brewing big beers.

 

[jrcrilly]

Gravity can be your friend rather than your enemy. I brewed for a long time on a three tier tier, gravity fed setup with a cooler mash tun. Worked great; I never had to lift a heavy pot with hot (or even cold) liquid. I didn't add a pump until I wanted to add mash recirculation. Of course, once I had that it seemed like a good idea to switch to a single tier with a second pump and thermostat-controlled burners and HERMS and a plate chiller and all stainless steel vessels and a bunch of PIDs and ...

So now I have it all torn down for a rebuild.

You may want to consider letting the pump go for a while.

 

[ericbw]

Gravity can be your friend rather than your enemy. I brewed for a long time on a three tier tier, gravity fed setup with a cooler mash tun. Worked great; I never had to lift a heavy pot with hot (or even cold) liquid. I didn't add a pump until I wanted to add mash recirculation. Of course, once I had that it seemed like a good idea to switch to a single tier with a second pump and thermostat-controlled burners and HERMS and a plate chiller and all stainless steel vessels and a bunch of PIDs and ...

So now I have it all torn down for a rebuild.

You may want to consider letting the pump go for a while.

So what's on your top tier in the old system? Cooler HLT?

 

[budbo]

I been doing all grain for 10 years and never needed a pump, maybe when I am too old to lift a pot..... My "stand" is still a small table, burner on ground, and a ladder (paint platform holds HLT [Igloo]). From the sound of it I would get a Stainless MT (so you can heat the mash water in the MT) and a good counterflow chiller to save time

 

[covers42]

I would look at a 5 gallon cooler with an added valve. I put mine on a table and on top of an inverted bucket to allow for the initial fill and sparge. If you do not have on already adding a valve on the 10 gallon boil kettle makes transfer to fermenting bucket easier. Another item is an air pump and ss stone to aerate the wort.

 

[RM-MN]

I actually didn't mean to imply biab was costly or took a lot of storage space. Those were just general considerations overall. In fact biab seems to be a very cost and space efficient option. I just don't think it's for me.

And you'll never know if you don't try it.

Forget the HLT and lifting the hot water above the mash tun. Experiments have proven that there is little benefit from a hot sparge. Use cold water for your sparge. With cold water you can use a simple pond pump to move the water from ground level to above the mash tun.

 

[aprichman]

And you'll never know if you don't try it.

Forget the HLT and lifting the hot water above the mash tun. Experiments have proven that there is little benefit from a hot sparge. Use cold water for your sparge. With cold water you can use a simple pond pump to move the water from ground level to above the mash tun.

Do you have any citations for this? Brewing 2nd edition (Lewis & Young) asserts that extract is trapped within the spent grain particles and that this extract can only be recovered after the 1st runnings have been removed since the extract must diffuse down a concentration gradient. The diffusion rate of extract into sparge water is mainly governed by time and temperature so a sparge should use hot water and not be performed too rapidly. The text goes on to describe that there is an optimum for both sparge rate (largely governed by the particle size of the milled grain) and temperature (where sparging too hot will extract unconverted starches and tannic material).

 

[doug293cz]

Do you have any citations for this? Brewing 2nd edition (Lewis & Young) asserts that extract is trapped within the spent grain particles and that this extract can only be recovered after the 1st runnings have been removed since the extract must diffuse down a concentration gradient. The diffusion rate of extract into sparge water is mainly governed by time and temperature so a sparge should use hot water and not be performed too rapidly. The text goes on to describe that there is an optimum for both sparge rate (largely governed by the particle size of the milled grain) and temperature (where sparging too hot will extract unconverted starches and tannic material).

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

For cold water sparging to be as efficient as hot water sparging, the starch to sugar conversion needs to be essentially complete, or the amylase enzymes need to have been completely denatured. Otherwise, conversion can continue during sparging, and hot water will allow that to happen, but cold water will shut the conversion down.

Diffusion can be short circuited by agitation, so stirring the sparge water aggressively can get the sparged mash to a homogeneous composition much quicker than diffusion alone (a few minutes of stirring is enough.)

The above applies to batch sparging. When fly sparging, you don't want to stir, so you are dependent on diffusion. In this case hot sparge water should make a difference, unless the sparge is done slow enough that diffusion can "complete" even at the slower rate in cold water.

Brew on

 

[cjones]

mine has always been to cut time down on brew day and increase efficiency - because of family and other responsibilities.

Mine would be a really great burner - I would go with the edelmeatle from norther brewer with the leg ext. - the way the shroud is positioned and air flow makes this a very efficient for propane and cuts considerable amount of time for heating up water and getting up to boil.

the next would be a fast and effective wort chiller - weather that be emersion or counter flow or plate. - helps with time and quality.

third would be a true false bottom - not a siphon type dome, but a raised false bottom. - helps with efficancy and time for sparging.

 

[jrcrilly]

So what's on your top tier in the old system? Cooler HLT?

A cooler HLT on top would involve carrying hot water up (or a pump) to fill it. My HLT is (was) a converted keg with its own propane burner in the top tier, filled from an RV hose. I did use a cooler MLT at the middle tier, but that was filled from the higher level HLT so no lifting of water. On the new rig, everything will have its own burner, so no coolers.

 

[aprichman]

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

For cold water sparging to be as efficient as hot water sparging, the starch to sugar conversion needs to be essentially complete, or the amylase enzymes need to have been completely denatured. Otherwise, conversion can continue during sparging, and hot water will allow that to happen, but cold water will shut the conversion down.

Diffusion can be short circuited by agitation, so stirring the sparge water aggressively can get the sparged mash to a homogeneous composition much quicker than diffusion alone (a few minutes of stirring is enough.)

The above applies to batch sparging. When fly sparging, you don't want to stir, so you are dependent on diffusion. In this case hot sparge water should make a difference, unless the sparge is done slow enough that diffusion can "complete" even at the slower rate in cold water.

Brew on

That shows the effects of a cold water sparge on brukaiser's system which is a recirculating system. I suppose you could agitate the crap out of the beer if you didn't have a recirculating system but IMO that's a lot more work than heating up sparge water. It was also noted that even on a recirculating system using cold sparge water produced a haze effect in the beer and slightly better head retention was observed. However, these were two different batches that used different recipes, had different pitch rates, etc. A lot of uncontrolled variables here. Pretty interesting results though.

 

[jrcrilly]

third would be a true false bottom - not a siphon type dome, but a raised false bottom. - helps with efficancy and time for sparging.

I've always used a dome FB with siphon, but I'm switching to a Jaybird flat bottom (above the ball valve) for the new rig. At the price, I hope to be impressed.

 

[griffi]

And you'll never know if you don't try it.

Forget the HLT and lifting the hot water above the mash tun. Experiments have proven that there is little benefit from a hot sparge. Use cold water for your sparge. With cold water you can use a simple pond pump to move the water from ground level to above the mash tun.

I guess I could have tried it but didn't know anything about it, just went from doing extract kits to buying an igloo cooler and doing mashes.

Is there any way to do a step mash with a BIAB set up? also, if I understand correctly the essential technique in BIAB is mashing in bag that must be hoisted out of the kettle, right?

 

[cjones]

you should - just remember to calculate the dead space now created for your water to grist ratio - so say you want a water to grist of 1.48 - but you have to add 1/2 gallon before the water goes above the false bottom. you need to add 1/2 to the total water needed for that ratio.

example - 10lb mash - 1.50 ration = 3.75 gallons needed - but now you have a dead space under the false bottom. this space takes 1/2 gallon to fill up - so you will need 4.25 gallons now for a 1.5 grist water ratio

 

[RM-MN]

I guess I could have tried it but didn't know anything about it, just went from doing extract kits to buying an igloo cooler and doing mashes.

Is there any way to do a step mash with a BIAB set up? also, if I understand correctly the essential technique in BIAB is mashing in bag that must be hoisted out of the kettle, right?

If you want to do a step mash with BIAB you heat and stir vigorously while the temperature comes up so you don't get hot spots. Most of us don't bother with a step mash because the modern fully modified malts don't benefit much from one.

Yes, instead of draining the mash tun you remove the bag of grains. One of the big advantages is that it is nearly impossible to make a mash that won't drain and if it won't drain on its own, you squeeze the wort out. Some of us do full volume, no sparge mashes and some do smaller mashes and sparge, either by dunking the bag in a separate vessel or by pouring water over the grain bag. With a fine grind of the grain, the conversion will be done in 30 minutes and it only takes a few more to remove the grain bag and sparge if wanted. That can really shorten the brew day if you are lacking time.

 

[doug293cz]

mine has always been to cut time down on brew day and increase efficiency - because of family and other responsibilities.

Mine would be a really great burner - I would go with the edelmeatle from norther brewer with the leg ext. - the way the shroud is positioned and air flow makes this a very efficient for propane and cuts considerable amount of time for heating up water and getting up to boil.

the next would be a fast and effective wort chiller - weather that be emersion or counter flow or plate. - helps with time and quality.

third would be a true false bottom - not a siphon type dome, but a raised false bottom. - helps with efficancy and time for sparging.

The OP states that they are batch sparging. A false bottom will not improve efficiency for a batch sparge process. See my post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7184964&postcount=28

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

That shows the effects of a cold water sparge on brukaiser's system which is a recirculating system. I suppose you could agitate the crap out of the beer if you didn't have a recirculating system but IMO that's a lot more work than heating up sparge water. It was also noted that even on a recirculating system using cold sparge water produced a haze effect in the beer and slightly better head retention was observed. However, these were two different batches that used different recipes, had different pitch rates, etc. A lot of uncontrolled variables here. Pretty interesting results though.

The recirculation doesn't affect the sparge efficiency. It does affect the saccharification (conversion) rate during the mash, so will help get to near 100% conversion faster. As stated previously, near 100% conversion, or an effective mash out (amylase denatured completely) is necessary for cold water batch sparge to equal hot water batch sparge. Homogenizing the mash prior to run-off only requires a few minutes of aggressive stirring; no need to continuously agitate the mash. There's not enough differences in the grain bills to affect the mash efficiency, and any variables after the sparge step are irrelevant to mash efficiency.

Hot sparge does have the benefit of allowing you to get to boil faster.

Brew on

 

[griffi]

The OP states that they are batch sparging. A false bottom will not improve efficiency for a batch sparge process. See my post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7184964&postcount=28

Brew on

I have a domed fb in my igloo cooler MT. Seems to work great...

 

[aprichman]

The recirculation doesn't affect the sparge efficiency. It does affect the saccharification (conversion) rate during the mash, so will help get to near 100% conversion faster. As stated previously, near 100% conversion, or an effective mash out (amylase denatured completely) is necessary for cold water batch sparge to equal hot water batch sparge. Homogenizing the mash prior to run-off only requires a few minutes of aggressive stirring; no need to continuously agitate the mash. There's not enough differences in the grain bills to affect the mash efficiency, and any variables after the sparge step are irrelevant to mash efficiency.

Hot sparge does have the benefit of allowing you to get to boil faster.

Brew on

Why would it matter if the enzymes are active or not? Can you explain this more clearly?

Also do you have a source that recirculation doesn't effect sparge efficency?

 

[doug293cz]

I have a domed fb in my igloo cooler MT. Seems to work great...

There's nothing wrong with using an FB with batch sparging, it just doesn't provide a lauter efficiency advantage. If someone who is batch sparging already has a braid in the MLT, and is trying to decide how to best spend their money for process improvement, an FB is should not be high on the list (unless they have a burning desire to start fly sparging.)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Why would it matter if the enzymes are active or not? Can you explain this more clearly?

Also do you have a source that recirculation doesn't effect sparge efficency?

I tried to explain that in my earlier post here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showth...y recirculation or stirring. Brew on :mug:

 

[griffi]

Wow, a lot of these responses are over my head in terms of technical brewing concepts. At this pount, i think I'm just trying to figure out whether to buy or build an e-HLT, get a multi-tiered solution or pump, or trying biab or some other compact solution....

 

[cjones]

lol..... just brew and enjoy - you cant go wrong

 

[doug293cz]

lol..... just brew and enjoy - you cant go wrong

Good advice. You can make pretty good beer without understanding how everything works in detail.

Brew on

 

[Gavin C]

Is there any way to do a step mash with a BIAB set up?

Excluding HERMS and RIMS there are 3 ways to do this. Each with it's own set of pros and cons

1. Step mashing via direct heating the mash tun. The mash must be stirred constantly to ensure even heating, avoiding hotspots and scorching while ensuring target temperatures are not over-shot. Very doable but more work involved because of the stirring.
   
   Step Mash Setup
   
   
   Example of recent step mash where a combination of methods was used
   
   
2. Step mashing via infusions of near boiling water. Very easy to do, less work involved as much less stirring is required and the mash-tun can remain insulated throughout if you use gas as I do as a heat source.
   
   Pulling a decoction
   
   
   Boiling a decoction
   
   
3. Step mashing via decoctions. A portion of the mash is removed, heated +/- a rest at a given temperature to allow conversion and then heated to a boil and boiled for a desired period of time. This boiled mash portion (the decoction) is then returned to the main mash raising the mash temperature to the next desired rest temperature.

Combinations of these methods can also be done in any given mash.

the essential technique in BIAB is mashing in bag that must be hoisted out of the kettle, right?

Absolutely correct. That is the real difference. In BIAB the grains are removed from the wort. In more traditional brewing the wort is removed from the grains. Again plusses and minuses to each method.

 

[JLeuck64]

You have lots of choices! I also started out thinking I would be satisfied just brewing 5 gal batches from here to eternity. So I set myself up a gravity system like the one shown with the red cooler. It worked REALLY well and I had no complaints about it.

Then as time went by my buddy and I started brewing double batches... back to back. Those went well but made for a long brew day! I kept an eye out for steep discounts on brew kettles and pulled the trigger on a 15gal SpikeBrewing kettle recently. Also upgraded the mash tun cooler and the burner stand about the same time.

I still brew with the old 10 gal kettle, and to be honest the Edlemetal burner works OK, but was disappointed with the needle valve. My old two burner Camp Chef stove is a favorite, and I really considered buying their 60 BTU burner before pulling the trigger on the Edlemetal... but the Camp Chef burner just wasn't quite tall enough to work with my current set up. Plus, I got a killer deal on the Edlemetal, 20% off!

So the bottom line from my experience is this: If I had it to do ALL over again, even though I experience power outages in my neck of the woods, I would think long and hard about a pump system. I splurged on the HLT with a sight glass, but could have saved $$$ there and applied it to a pump.

 

[RM-MN]

Excluding HERMS and RIMS there are 3 ways to do this. Each with it's own set of pros and cons

1. Step mashing via direct heating the mash tun. The mash must be stirred constantly to ensure even heating, avoiding hotspots and scorching while ensuring target temperatures are not over-shot. Very doable but more work involved because of the stirring.
   
   Step Mash Setup
   View attachment 313178
   
   Example of recent step mash where a combination of methods was used
   View attachment 313177
   
2. Step mashing via infusions of near boiling water. Very easy to do, less work involved as much less stirring is required and the mash-tun can remain insulated throughout if you use gas as I do as a heat source.
   
   Pulling a decoction
   View attachment 313175
   
   Boiling a decoction
   View attachment 313176
   
3. Step mashing via decoctions. A portion of the mash is removed, heated +/- a rest at a given temperature to allow conversion and then heated to a boil and boiled for a desired period of time. This boiled mash portion (the decoction) is then returned to the main mash raising the mash temperature to the next desired rest temperature.

Combinations of these methods can also be done in any given mash.



Absolutely correct. That is the real difference. In BIAB the grains are removed from the wort. In more traditional brewing the wort is removed from the grains. Again plusses and minuses to each method.

Not quite. For either system you need to separate the grains from the wort. You could BIAB in a kettle with a spigot and drain that into another kettle but for simplicity and less equipment most of us just mash in the kettle we intend to boil in and then remove the grain bag to do the separation.

If you do a conventional mash tun, you still have to remove the grains when the mash is done but you don't have them confined in a bag to make it easy, you have to scoop them out, then rinse out the tun. You could use a bag in the mash tun (some people do) and then drain the tun as though you were using a braid or false bottom but then you have the extra piece of equipment to store too.

 

[specharka]

Wow, a lot of these responses are over my head in terms of technical brewing concepts. At this pount, i think I'm just trying to figure out whether to buy or build an e-HLT, get a multi-tiered solution or pump, or trying biab or some other compact solution....

If you're looking to differentiate your process and develop more complex mashing methods, go with the multi-tiered solution.

If you're looking to make better beer, go with the stir plate.

Neglecting the importance of a quality yeast pitch is the #1 most common and worst mistake that homebrewers can make.

In the world of homebrewing, yeast dominates.