no boil prehopped beer kits

Williams 728
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mac_1103 said:
Six gallons actually (23 liters). But you have to add some extra fermentables - sugar, DME, etc.
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Oh, interesting. Re the hopped extract, is there much aroma, or is it better for a malt-forward beer? (edit: does anyone steep grain w these?)

What's the point vs regular extract brewing? Avoid equipment needs for boil/chill and save time?
 
I am not convinced these kits will make beer as good as AG or extract with steeping grains, however I am giving them a try. If the cider I am fermenting now is as good as what I make with apple juice I will be happy.

Also one of the main reasons I am in this hobby is I like to try things myself. Some say you should not use bread flour, I agree but I'm still going to try it. American Wheat Beer - Hazy Cheapskate - Miraculix forbidden Ale
 
Somesaymybeerisdrinkable said:
Also one of the main reasons I am in this hobby is I like to try things myself.
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Oh, totally. "don't yuck my yum" applies. It's like cooking or wood working. Everyone has different preferences, budgets, equipment, and ambitions.

I'm just curious what the upsides are for those that use this stuff - to me, trying different hops is part of what I enjoy. (edit: so it would have to be pretty convenient to surrender that; but maybe it is super fast & convenient?)
 
mashdar said:
What's the point vs regular extract brewing? Avoid equipment needs for boil/chill and save time?
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I think it's ease and accessibility. "Just add water!" It doesn't get any easier than that. You can make drinkable beer with them, and that's all that some people want. There are always different levels to a hobby, and these make the barrier to entry very low.

They can also be spruced up with steeping grains or extra hop additions.
 
mashdar said:
Oh, totally. "don't yuck my yum" applies. It's like cooking or wood working. Everyone has different preferences, budgets, equipment, and ambitions.

I'm just curious what the upsides are for those that use this stuff - to me, trying different hops is part of what I enjoy. (edit: so it would have to be pretty convenient to surrender that; but maybe it is super fast & convenient?)
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I agree with you about trying different hops. I currently have over 4.5 lbs of hops (at least 20 varieties) in my freezer.

I will defer to others that regularly brew with this stuff for your question about HME vs. DEM/LME, my reason is these kits were cheep. Also some of them come with extra hops for dry hopping.
 
a ton going on here ill try to answer everything from my experience


mashdar - no 10 dollars is for 6 gallons ! 6 gallons ! 6 gallons! holy fkuc . but hold on. dont look at it like that. its 1.8kg of lme. for 10 dollars

wait what that cant be. no it cant. this is very unusual these kits avg 25 dollars or more usually. plus exorbitant shipping cause they come in metal cans most of the time. this is some freak sale that is a game changer.
also very importantly all these kits are designed to be used with 1 kilo of brewing sugar to make up 6 gallons. many people make them up to 5 gallons to up the abv
you choice of what sugars to add varies and i will soon be starting a thread about that, so this six gallons will cost you 10 bucks. plus 1 kilo of fermentable dextrose about 6 dollars or dme about 12 i guess depending on availability sales your stock etc. if you want to add a couple bucks worth of hops thats your prerogative. total generally 5 gallons 22 dollars. when not on sale the kits are still under forty for 5 gallons

so if it makes decent extract beer for 40 dollars a keg in a 30 min brew day im good.
some kits have intense aroma. you must remember this is highly concentrated wort designed to be diluted to 5-6 gallons the hop concentrations in some kits can be very high to get to the right amount at 6 gallons. depends on style of kit. you can steep whatever grains you want i definitely steep a pound of chocolate malt when i do my stout kits but it adds steeping time to the brew day which is fine its short to begin with. i steep carapils in my lagers when i have time . you can add hops to anything you want at any time.

the main point for me with these kits is time read above posts.
somesaymybeer.... - the only difference between this kit and steeping extract with grains is...nothing. let me explain
imagine you had at your disposal a state of the art multimillion dollar white coat lab sanitary brewery with all access to any grains hops etc. then you make the technically perfect wort with decoction schedule recirc fly sparge hop additions ice cold rapid chilling etc etc shiny like breaking bad episode where he gets the lab under the laundromat. now you make that prefect wort crystal clear filtered ready for yeast and instead of pitching you concentrate it down with some sort of low heat evaporation or something to get an ultraconcentrated wort you can at any time add water and yeast and viola you have beer
thats what these kits are.
i cant get near that in my kitchen. i agree with the trying things especially if it results in more kits brewers who i can bs with. if you make a kit correctly then make biab and its better and more value time and money wise to you go ahead. you do you. i just think there are people here afraid to try it because they got the old i was there and never went back mantra.
mashdar back to hops real quick you can dry hop to your hearts desire you can add boiled hop teas to your kits also its a little more tricky but nothing like trying to get a clear wort from milled grains.
it doesnt make sense that these kits are not as good as extract with grains cause it is extract with grains especially if you add steeping grains.

NEVER EVER EVER BOIL THESE KITS
also the recommended 2.2 lbs of dextrose will yield a beer with 35 percent corn sugar . thats the downfall of these kits that much sugar will only work in a lager or crappy pilsner. they made them this way for uniformity. adjust accordingly!
see other posts

hi noah plus plus plus what noah said thanks noah


4 lbs of hops so jealous i have like 1/2 a pound and constantly catalog even though they are always alphabetically listed in my fridge. just so i can look at them frequently. i would set up a tent by your hop fridge and sell viewing tickets. lol
hi mac yeah 10 bucks is irresistible . they usually more generally 25 dollars plus shipping.
a very quick side about ag vs biab. when biab first came out it was often compared to traditional ag brewing without a grain bag. i think thats why some people still say ag vs biab at least thats my case.

i hope this thread doesnt devolve into a ag vs can kit thread. so far so good.


generally when something has 9 billion dollar following theres something there. and imagine how competitive that market must be. beer can kit companies dont make shite products anymore. kits are a european australian canadian non american thing. thanks for looking it up

thanks everyone brew on
 
I wonder if there are pro breweries using HME for one reason or another? Surely that $8.4B isn't all homebrew, unless theres a big HME homebrew culture we're not in contact with? (China? India?)

edit: that report is a little iffy. It seems like a bad translation, possibly written by someone with surface level understanding of the market.
 
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Its not pros it’s home brewers. It’s Europe (mostly U.K. ), Australia im almost sure that’s coopers and coopers is mr beer parent company. And also Canada

here In the us it’s mr beer users accounting for a lot of that. I think. I also think that a lot of mr beer brewers start and stay very simple they don’t advance to the point of reading these threads. No way to tell except lurking on the mr beer blogs and YouTube vids. I have.
now I also think there are a bunch of closeted no boil kit brewers here like I was and like I have drawn out here that account for part of that 9 billion. It’s hard to admit you enjoy no boil beer in the states. It’s very similar to saying you enjoy bmc. Which almost got you banned here in the past or at least looked down on.
these kits are so much better than commercial swill. I had a Kona ale last night. 3 sips and down the drain. The aroma was like wet clay or unscented kitty litter. Never mind the heavy adjunct taste corn or rice or both but tons of it like no malt balance. like those weird named eastern euro beers. Like zwieckxie or something . Wtf.
 
$9B strains credulity regardless of what one thinks of the quality of the beer that these kits make. A-B InBev gross revenue was $57B in 2022.
 
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mashdar said:
I wonder if there are pro breweries using HME for one reason or another? Surely that $8.4B isn't all homebrew, unless theres a big HME homebrew culture we're not in contact with? (China? India?)

edit: that report is a little iffy. It seems like a bad translation, possibly written by someone with surface level understanding of the market.
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This like most financial reports was likely written by AI.

I am suspicious of this report too it seems like it combined numbers from companies that make hop extract (Hopsteiner) and malt extract (Briess), and calling it all hopped malt extract.
 
Somesaymybeerisdrinkable said:
This like most financial reports was likely written by AI.

I am suspicious of this report too it seems like it combined numbers from companies that make hop extract (Hopsteiner) and malt extract (Briess), and calling it all hopped malt extract.
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I dug around and high end estimate for coopers revenue is $300M, muntons $125M, briess $110M, etc. The available numbers were not reliable and varied widely. That's total, so coopers is mostly beer, briess is mostly malt, etc.

The global malted barley market is ~$13B.
 
a little off topic but
yeah the article looks extreme . but prehopped kit brewing is more popular than most on here think. mashdar i do know that muntons almost exclusively does kits. coopers has a huge distribution for commercial beer in Australia also so much of that 300 is commercial but i also know that coopers holds a much larger share of the can kit market than Muntons so likely a huge chunk of that 300 million (def more than muntons 110) is from can kits. its a big industry with real standards and repeatability and a large international following. that was kind of my point.

getting back to my prehopped pilsner kit that is churning away,

split batch 1 at 57 degrees with diamond's lager yeast slurry still has kreusen, looks cloudy and blew off a bunch of sulfur

batch 2 with the kit yeast which said it was workhorse ale yeast at 69 deg dropped its kreusen is clearing and smells malty

both will be kegged i stopped bottling back in January

i am going to follow kit advice and dry hop on day 7. i am trying to decide whether to just throw the hops in or put them in a sack.

brew on
 
the kit yeast which claims to be workhorse seems to be performing well its already at 1020 after only 4 days . started at 1044 dry hopping likely tomorow.
 
My wheat beer pretty much stopped bubbling at day 4. Kit yeast is M20 according to their website. Haven't checked sg yet. Maybe tomorrow but I usually leave my beers alone for a least 2 weeks. I am very interested to see how this goes, though.
 
its extract beer it will taste like such it may not be as good as ag but it wont be any worse than any other extract beer . just cause it says prehopped kit doesnt make it worse than any other extract . like i said before brewing it with 35 percent dextrose will not make good beer but i think we got that covered .

i will also leave it for a total of 14 days before kegging
 
OH NO
8.46 WHATS GOING ON
THERES NO WAY THIS MAKES BEER RIGHT.... THIS IS CHEAPER THAN WATER

NOW I GOT TO BUY MORE
WTF
thanks rish
 
looks like i will try the pale ale cause i dont have that one and i will prolly get another stout cause prehopped stout kits are famous for being foolproof. the roasty bitter chocolate flavors are great at masking off flavors if you screw up thats why the coopers stout kit is known to be a winner. you can add anything to it and brew it in the hot sun and it will likely be drinkable.

im trying to research the ciders as they all i think have " flavoring" which im pretty sure is artificial and i dont like the idea of that in my cider when i make cider perfectly fine without artificial flavor.

i will prolly get the cider anyway as its a great deal and looks and sounds tasty

the mangrove jack ciders have great reviews on line

does anyone know if the cider kits have separate sweetener because i want a dry cider and they all say sweet im hoping i could leave out the sweetener or just add half.
 
fluketamer said:
THERES NO WAY THIS MAKES BEER RIGHT.... THIS IS CHEAPER THAN WATER
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Not for nothin' but it just might be time to give the over-the-top all caps stuff a rest. You practically invited people to rag on these kits and you for using them, and basically nobody did. There was one "just don't make me drink it" reply and that's pretty much been it. Besides, how can something be cheaper than water if you have to add water? 🤔
 
NEVER EVER EVER BOIL THESE KITS
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Just wondering why that is?

The other LME I have purchased in the past from OBK all have a one hour boil (post steeping of any grains) in the linked recipes.

I asked AI to chime in on this, and they said:
Here's how boiling LME contributes to these aspects:
  1. Hop utilization: When boiling LME, you can add hops to the boiling wort. The heat from the boil helps extract the alpha acids and essential oils from the hops, contributing to bitterness, flavor, and aroma in the finished beer. Boiling LME along with hops allows for proper utilization of hop compounds.
  2. Protein coagulation: During the boil, proteins present in the wort, including those derived from LME, coagulate and form what is known as the "hot break." This coagulation helps remove unwanted proteins and can enhance the clarity and stability of the final beer. Protein coagulation is important for achieving a cleaner and clearer finished product.
  3. Flavor development: Boiling LME, along with other ingredients like hops and specialty grains, helps develop the flavors of the beer. The heat of the boil extracts flavor compounds from the malt extract, contributing to the overall taste profile of the beer.
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TomSellers said:
I asked AI to chime in on this, and they said:
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Might be interesting to
  1. have ChatGPT type out a recipe that boils pre-hopped LME
  2. have ChatGPT brew the recipe it typed out
  3. have ChatGPT self-evaluate the beer that it made
  4. have ChatGPT send the beer to competitions for feedback
Let us know how it turns out.

eta: beyond that, for those humans that choose to understand a tool before using it, it's well known that current ChatGPTs are statistical word generation.
  • This type of "guessing" has been showing up in developer tools for about a year.
  • At first, when it's good, it's scary good; but it becomes easy to see the patterns that trigger it.
  • When it's bad, it's like a fly in the room: annoying and refuses to go away.
  • Most of the time it's bad.
 
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TomSellers said:
The other LME I have purchased in the past from OBK all have a one hour boil (post steeping of any grains) in the linked recipes.
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What linked recipes are you referring to?


With regard to the 'need' to boil un-hopped DME and LME, a while back, I was curious if the specific brand of DME or LME might be a consideration. As a starting point, "Are there visual differences between the various brands when heating to a boil?"

So occasionally, I add the DME (or LME) to the kettle at flame on (or 140° F) and view the wort every five minutes until it reaches a boil, then wait five minutes before adding the first hops.

The observations have been confirmed multiple times across a number of brands of un-hopped DME and un-hopped LME.
  • Is there variation in the observations between the brands I tested? :yes:
  • Do the observations matter? 🤷‍♀️
eta: and if ChatGPT would like to physically confirm these results as well, that might be interesting.
 
What linked recipes are you referring to?
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American IPA
Capture.JPG

I also used:
steeped grains​
DME​
additional hops​
 
from the recipe said:
60 min boil
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Most "extract" kits use a process very similar to all-grain brewing. That's fine.

Many people creating custom recipes with "extract" use 30 boils or 15 min boils (e.g. "15 minute Cascade Pale Ale" from 2010 here at HomeBrewTalk). There are also a couple of "no boil (pasteurized)" NEIPA topics from 2019 where brewers are reporting high quality (and occasionally award winning) beers.

But back to pre-hopped extract.

If a brewer can make quality beer (either self-evaluated, enjoyed by peers, or evaluated at competitions) with it, and it leads to a shorter brew day, then there's something interesting to talk about.
 
mashdar said:
Does a $10 pack make 1 gallon?
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It's supposed to make 23 liters, but you have to add a *lot* of sugar, and I'm skeptical that the resulting beer could be any good unless you use expensive DME for most of that sugar. But I usually brew 4 gallons at a time, and that would take a lot less sugar to reach a reasonable gravity. I also have some 3 gallon carboys and that might not need any sugar at all.

I have no problem with adding modest amounts of sugar to my beer. I might get some of the kits and try it. This will bump the bitterness up quite a bit, so will start with something not-so-bitter.
 
TomSellers said:
NEVER EVER EVER BOIL THESE KITS
Click to expand...
Just wondering why that is?

The other LME I have purchased in the past from OBK all have a one hour boil (post steeping of any grains) in the linked recipes.
Click to expand...

I think it's because the kits have flavor and aroma hops added, and you'll boil that away. I don't know; you'll have to read the directions on the kit and decide if you want to follow them. If all they had was bittering added and you were supposed to add your own finishing hops, they would want you to boil it, but probably not for a full hour.

It's not a bad price for LME. I'm an all-grain brewer but I'm still intrigued and thinking about trying them.
 
z-bob said:
It's supposed to make 23 liters, but you have to add a *lot* of sugar, and I'm skeptical that the resulting beer could be any good unless you use expensive DME for most of that sugar. But I usually brew 4 gallons at a time, and that would take a lot less sugar to reach a reasonable gravity. I also have some 3 gallon carboys and that might not need any sugar at all.

I have no problem with adding modest amounts of sugar to my beer. I might get some of the kits and try it. This will bump the bitterness up quite a bit, so will start with something not-so-bitter.
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You just revealed the limitations of those kits... the large amount of sugar to be added, and them being prehopped.

Due to the pre-hopping a brewer cannot simply use 1.5 to 2 pouches for a full 23 liter (6 gallon) batch and forego adding all or much sugar, unless one likes the extra bitterness that comes with it.

But you brought forward a good compromise by brewing a somewhat smaller batch from one pouch and adding a more reasonable amount of sugar. Or use DME or (unhopped) LME, or part of a pouch with low hopping/bitterness.

Speaking of bitterness, kits like these are not meant to be boiled or even heated to higher temps at all. Just dissolve in 140-160°F water as quickly as one can, then chill. That is so any remaining alpha acids in the extract won't isomerize and add more bitterness, while losing flavor an aroma.
@z-bob just hinted to that too. ^
 
fluketamer said:
OH NO
8.46 WHATS GOING ON
THERES NO WAY THIS MAKES BEER RIGHT.... THIS IS CHEAPER THAN WATER

NOW I GOT TO BUY MORE
WTF
thanks rish
Click to expand...
Thanks for starting the thread, Fluketamer!! I now have 6 kits inbound for $56 Canadian delivered, instead of $25ish per kit . FWIW, I generally use light or extra light DME in place of some or all of the sugar required. No boil, add kit to 3ish L of water, heat to 170F and hold for 15 minutes or so. Add other fermentables to a couple L of water, mix to dissolve. Heat to 170F. Add all to fermenter and top to 20-23L (depends if bottling or kegging is the goal) Pitch the yeast at 70-75F and away we go! I've also found that 250g of maltodextrin can help mitigate some of the 'cidery' taste from using just sugar and add 'body' to the brew without messing with the flavor too much.
Someone on here posted the contents of the commercial 'brew enhancers':
Brew Enhancer 2=
500g Dextrose
250g Light DME
250g Maltodextrin

Brew Enhancer 3=
500g Light DME
300g Dextrose
200g Maltodextrin

Side note: I've made several of ABC Cork's cider kits (Apple pear and Wildberry) in the past with great success using just 1kg Dextrose. The flavoring and sweetener packs included with the kits are VERY concentrated- using the entire contents can make the resulting cider quite sweet and soda pop-ish, YMMV (I personally like it). This sweetness seems to mellow a bit after a month or two of conditioning.

Bottom line: A full corny keg for $9 kit+ $15 DME is a risk I'm willing to take :ban:
 
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z-bob said:
If all they had was bittering added and you were supposed to add your own finishing hops, they would want you to boil it, but probably not for a full hour.
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Some of the kits actually include additional hops for dry hopping. If I really wanted to add more hops to one of these, I would probably do a no or short boil of some DME in water, hop that, and then chill before adding the pre-hopped LME.

IslandLizard said:
You just revealed the limitations of those kits... the large amount of sugar to be added, and them being prehopped.

Due to the pre-hopping a brewer cannot simply use 1.5 to 2 pouches for a full 23 liter (6 gallon) batch and forego adding all or much sugar, unless one likes the extra bitterness that comes with it.
Click to expand...
Another possibility might be just skipping the sugar to make a low ABV beer.
 
mac_1103 said:
Some of the kits actually include additional hops for dry hopping. If I really wanted to add more hops to one of these, I would probably do a no or short boil of some DME in water, hop that, and then chill before adding the pre-hopped LME.


Another possibility might be just skipping the sugar to make a low ABV beer.
Click to expand...
You might want to add maltodextrin, just so it doesn't come out watery. I attempted a Mild Ale using a Cooper's Real Ale can, 1/2lb Amber DME and 1 lb Maltodextrin. OG=1.030, FG=1.015 ABV=2.6%. Tasted like beer, mouth feel like beer, didn't get hammered after 6 bombers lol
 

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