Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I love a24. Bright stonefruit and citrus but still allows the hops to shine. I allow my fermentation to get to 75-76 with it actually
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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daygobrewer
Well-Known Member
I've been doing this consistently but was unhappy with the aroma from the dry hop. I suspect the reduced surface area is the cause. With the presence of trub, rousing wasn't an option. The NEIPA I currently have on tap was fermented in one keg, and then transferred to another keg for dry hopping and serving. I added the dry hops to the serving keg before transferring the beer from the fermenting keg. My hope was there would be more of a "mixing" action of the hops as the beer filled the serving keg. So far there's definitely an improvement in aroma.
That's not to say fermenting, dry hopping, and serving from a single keg, won't work for you, though.
For any style that didn't require a large dry hop, I wouldn't hesitate to ferment and serve from the same keg. It's incredibly convenient.
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Thought this might have been of interest to those following this thread.
They compared no dry hop, dry hop on day 0, dry hop on day 4 (when fermentation ended), and dry hop on day 8 (when cold crash was completed, I.e, hopping at 40 degrees). They refer to the day 4 addition as warm to cold because the hops went at ferm temp and rode the cold crash down to 40. It’s not clear to me if the hops were removed or left in the fermenter.
Compared to the control that was not dry hopped, all three had higher levels of tropical fruit flavors. Day 0 had the most, Day 4 was close to 0, and day 8 was less. So their takeaway was that they can make 3 perceptibly different beers with the same recipe by changing the dry hop timing.
I’m not sure I learned anything I’d put into practice. Dry hopping in the 40s had some negative effects, but nobody is doing that anyway, I don’t think. If you like biotransformation, you might see support in day 0 having more tropical fruit flavor than day 4. But you don’t believe in biotransformation, maybe you’d see the “similar” as evidence that it doesn’t matter.
I've downloaded it but not listened to it yet. Did they have other characteristics to describe? Undesired flavors, burn, anything like that? Seems there's always a balance to be had.
Dang now I really need to find time to listen to it.
They looked at the effect on the yeast, and basically found none. There was some effect on the cell health but not on attenuation or floc or anything that interested me.
They did talk about sulfur notes, which, if I remember right were highest in the day 0 dry hop and lowest in the day 8 dry hop. They viewed the day 4/warm to cold dry hop as the best of both worlds, getting the most of the tropical flavor and avoiding most of the sulfur notes. They also said the cold hopped version had several other negative flavor characteristics but I don’t recall what. I didn’t pay much attention to that as I wasn’t really interested in hopping at 40f.
It’s interesting because it’s Sierra Nevada and because they had a pretty well designed experiment. But I didn’t walk away feeling like I’m going to apply anything they learned. Ymmv.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Just did a split batch with helio gazer vs british ale V. Definitely a big difference. Both beers are great. Didn’t add any hops to the mash. It’s like the helio gazer had a large charge of nelson in it i guess. Very good. The big mystery is the helio gazer is 6.3% and the BAV is 7.0%. One of them had a ton more cold break. Maybe that was the difference?
What was your AA? I’ve gotten 80-83 on three batches so far with HG. Same pitch rate?
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
How did you pull off the wort for both batches? And possibility for stratification?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
one had a lot more cold break. other than that they should be the same. i don't remember which one had all of the cold break.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
now that i think about it, my wife remarked on how there seemed to be more yeast in the starter that had more attenuation. Maybe the other yeast was less viable. One was around 76% the other around 68%.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Trub is proteins, proteins drag down IBU?
Trub certainly has an effect on foam, but to my knowledge, should not have a significant impact on attenuation as observed by @stickyfinger. I can imagine, however, trub proteins stripping hop oils as particulates/yeast settle when fermentation finishes.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
it must have been that the helio yeast was a little less viable. nothing else really seems to make sense to me. i also had to ferment both batches in one fridge with the probe on the heliogazer version. i guess that could have done something. it just seems odd to me. i did a couple stouts that had wildly different fermentation temperature graphs and they were exactly the same (using wy1450)
Scott Janish at Sapwood and the author of The New IPA say they drop hop most of their beers at 40-45F. It's in the Push the Limit of hops article in Beer and Brewing magazine.
I used BAV for my last batch and I got higher attenuation than some other yeasts I've used too. Blew off 3x. Seems to me like it's very similar to London Ale III or Imperial Juice. It was juicy, but drier than say Coastal Haze or London Fog, both of which I really love.
BAV is OYL’s LA3 equivalent
Well, there you have it! To me, it finishes too dry unless you mash high. I also get more bitterness/hop burn/astringency. I'm not a huge LA3 fan to begin with.BAV is OYL’s LA3 equivalent
Well, in that case, I can say I don't really notice any off flavors in the Sapwood IPAs in my fridge.
Given his popularity here, I wonder whether anyone has had much of his beer? Their brewery is maybe 10 min from my LHBS. I don't go as often as I should. Their selection has exploded. Lots of fruit puree.
He said they've leaned heavy into sours and other styles. I haven't had any of their beer, but would love to try some. I'd be down for a swap if you want. I have an excellent brewery near me that does great IPAs and German style lagers. Taproom Pours |
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Their beers are good but definitely not the top of the game in my opinion.
They had some very limited distro here on Long Island at some point in the last 12 months. It was official distro, but the price was as if it were muled. ~30 bucks a 4 pack and 8 dollars a can for singles. I was excited for it, and got a can but wasn't terribly impressed. I actually wrote them on IG they needed to improve their price point to compete, particularly since I can just order a case of otherhalf (with free shipping) whenever I want. Most of the OH being better than the one Sapwood beer I had. The response (from Mike actually) was something along the lines of "we can't control that due to the three tier system" which is partially true, but maybe they should have done some market research on competitive pricing first. I haven't seen them back here since.
All that said, my brother in law lives one town over from them and I should really convince him to stop before he comes up to LI next. He's into wine, which is why I haven't pushed it before
All that said, my brother in law lives one town over from them and I should really convince him to stop before he comes up to LI next. He's into wine, which is why I haven't pushed it before
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I actually think the hop game is over. And it’s honestly probably due to this thread lol everyone that follows this thread and has good o2 practices can probably make a pretty decent NEIPA. (I personally know some pros that learned from this thread). I feel like the gap between the best and the mediocre is closing and no NEIPA “wows” me anymore.
I personally haven’t brewed one since July and I don’t know how often I’ll brew them. I’ve moved on to German ales/lagers and brilliantly clear west coast ipas
Totally agree. I’d put them top 3 of our local IPA breweries. Behind Other Half DC, and comparable to Astrolab.
I’ve briefly met them both and I’ve learned a ton from their books and websites. They’re a gold mine for us home brewers.
Man, I don’t know. I feel like there’s still not many making GREAT NEIPAs and they’re mainly the same players as they always were.
And I still find a lot of breweries making what they call NEIPAs but, at least in my mind, and to what I’m looking for in a NEIPA, aren’t close.
Maybe that’s just my experience locally. Other than the three I mentioned above, I don’t think there’s a brewery around here that makes a NEIPA worth buying.
daygobrewer
Well-Known Member
I’ve been home brewing off and on for the past 13 years or so. I started with partial mash and quickly moved to all grain, but in the past 5 years the work involved with all grain became unappealing, and I stopped brewing with any frequency. Recently I decided to start brewing again, fermenting and serving out of kegs using floating dip tubes. Having seen a few successful recipes only using extract, I decided to start there with my “grain” bill while working out the process of using kegs.
Below is my most recent batch. I decided to have fun with some modern products I haven’t tried yet, including Citra Incognito, Phantasm, and the thiol-boosting yeast strain Helio Gazer.
Process
I dissolved the DME in 4 gallons of water at 160F, then added the Citra Incognito and Phantasm, and whirlpooled for 20 minutes. That lower temp was a suggestion from a professional brewer who’s worked with Incognito extensively. Obviously, there was no boil for this recipe, and I felt confident the wort was pasteurized. After the whirlpool, I cooled the wort, strained, and transferred to a corny keg with a floating dip tube. The final volume was about 4.4 gallons in the fermenter. I pitched a pack of OYL-405 Helio Gazer at 70F. Once FG was reached and stabilized, I cool crashed to 50F for 48 hours. I prepped a second corny keg with a floating dip tube by filling it with sanitizer, pushing it out with CO2, and added 8 oz of Nelson Sauvin while purging with CO2. I did a closed transfer from the fermenting keg to the serving kegs. I dry hopped at 55F for 48 hours while carbonating at 25 PSI, then crashed to serving temps and PSI.
Evaluation
The intense fragrance of guava and passionfruit during fermentation was a good indicator of what the finished beer would taste like. In the glass I found yellow guava, passionfruit, gooseberry, white grape, white grapefruit, honeydew, white peach, and even cucumber. As expected, the low temp whirlpool and use of Incognito yielded little bitterness or astringency, and the aftertaste came off as “minerally”. This quality played into the white wine-like flavors of the beer. My SO summed it well by describing it as tasting like a “guava mimosa”.
Overall I’m super pleased with this recipe. Fermenting in and serving from kegs is a new process to me, and I was concerned I wouldn’t be able to limit O2 as well as the style requires. Thankfully that isn’t the case.
I also purchased some Mosaic Incognito, and plan to remake this recipe subbing the Citra for Mosaic.
Back With Another One Of Those Phantasmic Beats NEIPA
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.014
ABV: 6.0%
“Grain” Bill
6 lb Pilsen DME
Water
4 gal RO
2 grams CaCl
Whirlpool
20 ml Citra Incognito @160F 20 min
4 oz Phantasm Powder @ 160F 20 min
Yeast
OYL-405 Helio Gazer @ 70F 72 hours, then 73F until FG
Dry Hop
8 oz Nelson Sauvin T90 @ 55F 48 hours
Below is my most recent batch. I decided to have fun with some modern products I haven’t tried yet, including Citra Incognito, Phantasm, and the thiol-boosting yeast strain Helio Gazer.
Process
I dissolved the DME in 4 gallons of water at 160F, then added the Citra Incognito and Phantasm, and whirlpooled for 20 minutes. That lower temp was a suggestion from a professional brewer who’s worked with Incognito extensively. Obviously, there was no boil for this recipe, and I felt confident the wort was pasteurized. After the whirlpool, I cooled the wort, strained, and transferred to a corny keg with a floating dip tube. The final volume was about 4.4 gallons in the fermenter. I pitched a pack of OYL-405 Helio Gazer at 70F. Once FG was reached and stabilized, I cool crashed to 50F for 48 hours. I prepped a second corny keg with a floating dip tube by filling it with sanitizer, pushing it out with CO2, and added 8 oz of Nelson Sauvin while purging with CO2. I did a closed transfer from the fermenting keg to the serving kegs. I dry hopped at 55F for 48 hours while carbonating at 25 PSI, then crashed to serving temps and PSI.
Evaluation
The intense fragrance of guava and passionfruit during fermentation was a good indicator of what the finished beer would taste like. In the glass I found yellow guava, passionfruit, gooseberry, white grape, white grapefruit, honeydew, white peach, and even cucumber. As expected, the low temp whirlpool and use of Incognito yielded little bitterness or astringency, and the aftertaste came off as “minerally”. This quality played into the white wine-like flavors of the beer. My SO summed it well by describing it as tasting like a “guava mimosa”.
Overall I’m super pleased with this recipe. Fermenting in and serving from kegs is a new process to me, and I was concerned I wouldn’t be able to limit O2 as well as the style requires. Thankfully that isn’t the case.
I also purchased some Mosaic Incognito, and plan to remake this recipe subbing the Citra for Mosaic.
Back With Another One Of Those Phantasmic Beats NEIPA
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.014
ABV: 6.0%
“Grain” Bill
6 lb Pilsen DME
Water
4 gal RO
2 grams CaCl
Whirlpool
20 ml Citra Incognito @160F 20 min
4 oz Phantasm Powder @ 160F 20 min
Yeast
OYL-405 Helio Gazer @ 70F 72 hours, then 73F until FG
Dry Hop
8 oz Nelson Sauvin T90 @ 55F 48 hours
Welllll I wouldn't say it's over, it has come to a point where yes the wow factor isn't what it was. Especially when I can pour one out of the tap that is fantastic. That said I still love all the different hop combos and things that can be done with this style. Wcipa didn't die it just took the backseat for a bit and now it's making a push. Personally I brew I lot of different styles, Belgians are fun to brew for me and I've really taken a liking to British ales over the past year or so. My next ipa will be a west coast ipa but this style is still my bread and butter it will just be diluted a little bit with more styles on my brew list.
This might be the best I’ve had from sapwood. Really good.
I've followed the same path! I do make a neipa every few batches (like an all Citra one yesterday), but I have too since moved onto Lagers, Kolsches and Alts. I think my palate is tired of hoppy hazies, although I do still enjoy a good one. I haven't made the Tree House run in years. I used to go waaaay more than I should have!
I feel like the hop game has actually gone backwards. The market seems to be flooded with mediocre beers. TH, Trillium, and OH have all fallen victim to the expansion vs quality demon. I find it extremely difficult to get my hands on great IPAs in the central NY area on a regular basis. I did have a Veil beer last night that was outstanding, but things like that show up once in a blue moon.
secretlevel
Well-Known Member
Haha is this the natural evolution of a brewer?! I'm in the same exact boat, making a bunch of West Coast IPAs right now. It's an exciting space to experiment though, I'm not really loading these beers with a bunch of crystal malts and all C-hops (nothing wrong with those). The west coast IPAs are also evolving in many ways and becoming more fruity/hoppy than they ever were, and it's these west coast breweries like North Park, Highland Park, Slice and GC that are making them exciting:
https://beerandbrewing.com/recipe-west-coast-ipa-is-dead/https://beerandbrewing.com/recipe-cellarmaker-mt-nelson-pale-ale/
PS. Sorry for highjacking this thread.
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Finally listened to it today, it was interesting. You could walk away from it telling yourself to dry hop early and long and skip anything cold.
As always, it's a data point, everyone needs to make their own conclusions with their own beers.
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Ferment and serve from kegs with floating dip tube/filter has been my process this year with great success. Typically 10-12 gallons into 5 gal corney split batches. It’s a great way to use different hop types/schedules. I’m a true believer in this process. Here’s my latest NEIPA.
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Cloudy day, no sunlight. Photo is not accurate representation.
NZhomebrew
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Can I ask what your process is for dry hopping in the fermentation keg?
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Initially, I opened the lid with gas on and dumped the hops in. From there, moved to closed transfer from fermenting keg to serving keg pre loaded with hops. Similar to process listed above by @daygobrewer.
So I usually make starters on Tuesdays, harvest, crash for 24 hours, then brew on Thursdays. I made a starter on Wednesday night after getting ingredients delivered on Tuesday this week, but still brewed on Thursday, harvested, but no cold crash. I pitched the entire 2L starter of Coastal Haze, leaving about an inch of headspace in my 7 gal SSBrewtech Brew Bucket. Took off in about 3 hours and is at FG right now. Cleaned up about 7 blowoffs, but the basement smelled great. All Citra hops, all Mecca malt. Lowered my typical IBUs (58) to 48. Going to let it go 12 days, then soft crash, DH, and keg on day 14. If you haven't tried Mecca Grade Malt, I highly recommend. It makes a deeper orange color neipa, but the malt flavor is insane. Just got 2 60lb Vittle Vaults to store it in bulk!
Look up a vitality starter, that’s essentially what you did here. You may not have had the count you desired but the yeasties were primed and ready to CONSUME
