Picobrew Z

[Mike Howard]

From the Picobrew update

"Part of the Z program includes a redesign of the step filter screens. The original Zymatic screens were steel-wrapped mesh, and the frames were prone to bending and damage over time.

Pictured here are prototypes of the new screens, which are encapsulated mesh in food-safe rubber. These screens are much easier to clean, and pick points are molded in to make them easier to position and lift off the grain bed when brewing is complete.

We’re still tweaking and refining the screens, but as you can see, they’re pretty awesome."

Well, I'm not sure how "awesome" they are, but let's hope they are better than the past ones. They look pretty dismal at the moment, but since they are prototypes am hoping they get better.

Every update we get from them just tells us this thing is not ready for prime time....

 

[Gut Pile]

wasnt it you who asked for more information about some of their testing ?? Banned boy lashes out again. Lol. Hey I just discovered the ignore option here. Woo hoo.

They've banned a ton of people actually. I know of 6 not including Mike. If you as much as grumble on the dead pico forums you are gone. Most of the time its people who are experiencing crap service on repairs and run around daring to tell their story. They are great at solving stupid problems but you are @%@#ed if its something even remotely complicated requiring the unit to be sent back. The picos are even worse than the zymatics. Only + is they are cheaper to ship. one of my friends got banned for leaving a negative review on amazon. So apparently trashing bad service on amazon will get your forum privileges revoked on the pico forum/support site.

 

[Anyhowe]

They've banned a ton of people actually. I know of 6 not including Mike. If you as much as grumble on the dead pico forums you are gone. Most of the time its people who are experiencing crap service on repairs and run around daring to tell their story. They are great at solving stupid problems but you are @%@#ed if its something even remotely complicated requiring the unit to be sent back. The picos are even worse than the zymatics. Only + is they are cheaper to ship. one of my friends got banned for leaving a negative review on amazon. So apparently trashing bad service on amazon will get your forum privileges revoked on the pico forum/support site.

Yup. But some people have a high butthead index. BI. We will find these same people blocked from lots of twitter accounts and a bunch of these folks also have high levels of folks blocking or restricting them in FB. They usually hide behind, the “differing opinions” argument. My experience is that buttheads are buttheads. that said, I do look forward to a quality product once delivered. I also look forward to years of multiple automatic options for us to choose from as we do now on the non and semi side of things. The cutting edge is seldom really good never mind perfect.

+1 to the innovators. -10 to the folks with a high BI.

 

[Mike Howard]

Buttheads also tend to Report a lot of posts....

 

[gamerc]

Disregard.

 

[Mike Howard]

yep

 

[Mike Howard]

Pretty good update from Picobrew today...glad they got the update out on time. Very interested to see how they are managing fluid transfer to the adjunct compartments.

 

[Lax coach]

I had a thought yesterday....I just had an outlet installed in the garage for my Z2 last weekend. And though it doesn't often get to sub-freezing temps in my garage, it does happen on occasion--usually overnight when it's below zero outside. The garage is insulated on all sides except the floor, but is not heated.

Obviously there are a lot of hoses and components inside that have water in them at all times, so there's some risk of damage there. What's the best way to address this without actively heating the garage? All I could come up with is to throw a blanket over it and put either a seedling mat or one of those ice-melting mats for your front step in there with it. Really as long as I can keep the unit in the 40-50 degree range at all times I should be fine, right?

 

[Mike Howard]

Good question...I assume the HEX loop will be at least 33% glycol so there is no risk of that freezing. Not sure how the new Z's are configured, as far as the wort loop, so not sure if there will be any residual liquid in there, or a way to purge it.

The Zymatics do have residual liquid in the wort lines, if you are not purging it out by running circulate after every Rinse. I reccomend that after every brew/rinse you run circulate for at least 5 minutes with the black line open and hanging free. Thats been my SOP for awhile now to make sure the Z has no liquid in either the intake lines or the drain lines.

I guess you could take one of those 110V plugs that operate on temp and hook it to a lamp that would turn on and keep a localized area from freezing. We have one of these (Here) connected to a lamp and sits under our RV to keep the water lines from freezing when we use it in the winter, works like a champ.

 

[Anyhowe]

I had a thought yesterday....I just had an outlet installed in the garage for my Z2 last weekend. And though it doesn't often get to sub-freezing temps in my garage, it does happen on occasion--usually overnight when it's below zero outside. The garage is insulated on all sides except the floor, but is not heated.

Obviously there are a lot of hoses and components inside that have water in them at all times, so there's some risk of damage there. What's the best way to address this without actively heating the garage? All I could come up with is to throw a blanket over it and put either a seedling mat or one of those ice-melting mats for your front step in there with it. Really as long as I can keep the unit in the 40-50 degree range at all times I should be fine, right?

Interesting question. If it were me I would do one of a few things which ever was easier. Throw a blanket over top with an incondesent light bulb or an old school string of Christmas lights under it or drape it with a cheap electric blanket. It won’t take much too keep in above freezing.

 

[swimIan]

Pretty good update from Picobrew today...glad they got the update out on time. Very interested to see how they are managing fluid transfer to the adjunct compartments.

Would be willing to post the details, please?

 

[Lax coach]

Good question...I assume the HEX loop will be at least 33% glycol so there is no risk of that freezing. Not sure how the new Z's are configured, as far as the wort loop, so not sure if there will be any residual liquid in there, or a way to purge it.

One of the previous updates mentioned that they'd modified the HEX loop to run on pure water rather than a glycol solution. Here's a snippet:

Our new heating system is designed to be easier to service, with a longer lifetime. One of the biggest improvements is that it uses water as the working fluid, rather than glycol.

I don't know why I remembered that, but it's what actually led me to this question.

The Zymatics do have residual liquid in the wort lines, if you are not purging it out by running circulate after every Rinse. I reccomend that after every brew/rinse you run circulate for at least 5 minutes with the black line open and hanging free. Thats been my SOP for awhile now to make sure the Z has no liquid in either the intake lines or the drain lines.

Never would have thought of this. Might start doing that on my Pico Pro.

I guess you could take one of those 110V plugs that operate on temp and hook it to a lamp that would turn on and keep a localized area from freezing. We have one of these (Here) connected to a lamp and sits under our RV to keep the water lines from freezing when we use it in the winter, works like a champ.

Could definitely use something like that with a lamp, seedling map, or heat tape. Thanks for the suggestion!

Interesting question. If it were me I would do one of a few things which ever was easier. Throw a blanket over top with an incondesent light bulb or an old school string of Christmas lights under it or drape it with a cheap electric blanket. It won’t take much too keep in above freezing.

Don't know where I'd find an old-school string of christmas lights at this point. I had initially thought of the electric blanket, but all the ones I'd seen previously had an auto-off function that would defeat the purpose. Seems there are still some "horribly dangerous" ones still available if you look hard enough though

 

[Lax coach]

Would be willing to post the details, please?

Here's the full update, sans pictures:

Exciting news: The design team has wrapped up its final elements, and early production builds are currently being assembled! The engineers are making last-minute adjustments, including spacing alignments; final fit; mitigating steam production; and flow rate across hops cages.

As we build these units in-house, one important goal is to test assembly processes. We are always iterating as we learn how to assemble Z systems more efficiently and develop the order of construction.

This will help us increase to larger-scale production when we transition to our assembly facility in Renton for the ship-ready builds. Incidentally, that’s where we also build PicoPaks.

We will continue to perform rigorous testing throughout the build process and all the way through our rollout and production phases, ensuring the final product is fully functional. Throughout October, we will keep shipping early units and ramping up production based upon quality tests, supply-chain availability and overall performance.

The upper section of the Z is called the HIM (Heat Injection Module), which contains the heat loop, heat exchanger, OLED mount, pumps and other components. Essentially, it is a very complex piece of sheet metal that turns six separate pieces into one for faster production and assembly.

That very nice sheet metal is manufactured about 30 miles north of our Seattle headquarters—keeping it local! The main functions of the HIM are to transfer heat; house electronics; dissipate steam; hold the step filter; and distribute the wort to the proper locations.

It’s made of lightweight aluminum, yet creates a structurally sound product by distributing the loads evenly throughout the rest of the Z. It’s also powder-coated to protect the machine from the effects of wort, steam and other corrosive elements.

Next week, we’ll take a look at some of the other internal components, and introduce you to one of our on-staff engineers.

 

[Mike Howard]

One of the previous updates mentioned that they'd modified the HEX loop to run on pure water rather than a glycol solution.

Oh, yea...I remember that now...bummer. Guess you'll have to use some sort of electric heating unit...

 

[Mike Howard]

Anyone know what Picobrew has planned for routine cleaning procedures on the new Z? I don't remember seeing/hearing anything. Hopefully they are back to using PBW.

 

[cheesemonster]

Anyone know what Picobrew has planned for routine cleaning procedures on the new Z? I don't remember seeing/hearing anything. Hopefully they are back to using PBW.

I asked them about this in February as it is hard to keep the machine clean when you cannot access the inside parts with brushes and they said still no PBW as it is harsh on polycarbonates and soft plastics that they are still using. The step filter will still be PC, they are just molding it better supposedly

 

[Mike Howard]

That sucks...so the heat exchanger is still going to be a nightmare to keep clean.

 

[Gut Pile]

Fascinating that ZX Ventures is a creditor to them and not an investor. That bit of info was probably not supposed to get out. Hope they kept enough of that preorder cash to actually ship units. This could end badly with the slipping deadlines and only the preorder stash to burn. There cant be that much money in shipping overpriced drm’d grain packs.

 

[Mike Howard]

Yea, that "loan" information, while better than an investment from those A$$....S, is interesting, to say the least.

 

[Thorrak]

Loan vs. equity investment is as much determined by the investor as the management of the company being invested in, as well as where in the cap stack the investor wants to fall. You're ascribing malice to the fact that the investment wasn't equity - but you're forgetting that if the owners "believe" in their company, they would generally want to retain as much equity as possible.

 

[gamerc]

I'm starting to consider going another route - like I've stated before, I'm looking for a pretty advanced system, but I don't want to be a guinea pig.

Some things I'm concerned about:
MUST BE connected to Picobrew to brew. If it's like the Zymatic, I'm a little concerned here. I don't see the need, and frankly prefer not to be. A home internet outage should not ruin a brew day.
Longevity of the equipment. I have read enough of the well thought out comments by @Mike Howard that highlight areas for concern.
I am a tinkerer by nature, and I do prefer to have the option of fiddling as I see fit - I did buy the thing, right?
I would really like it if it had a little flexibility in equipment. I would like to brew in a SSbrewtech brewbucket or similar. I want to brew and ferment in there, not kegs... but who knows. I might be able to retrofit something. I don't know how that would work with the Z2 brew setup into multiple kegs.

I am a little intrigued by the SSBrewtech ebiab system. While not automated, I'm assuming it has to have some potential to make my brew days easier. I am still on the fence, but mainly on the Z side.

 

[Mike Howard]

The jury is still out on what the new Z's are going to deliver. It's very apparent that folks are disturbed by the lack of information being provided by Picobrew and these "once a week Monday" updates, just aren't cutting it. I'd like to see a complete set of specifications about the new Z series and I think Picobrew should address these concerns that the preorder folks have. They have one in the field for crying out loud, just publish the specs and let the chips fall where they may.

If the new Z's cannot Start/Run/Finish without having an internet connection, that will be a showstopper for a lot of folks. It's also concerning that a good cleaner cannot be used and that is a huge problem they have known about since the Zymatic. Apparently they are choosing not to correct this particular issue however, which is a shame.

I like that they addressed the Step Filter Arm and its inherently bad design, but this new "Tentacle Pump" that @QoB mentioned could be another failure point. It would be nice to see some info on this and the wort distribution system. I'm on the fence about the new Step Filter itself, wish it was Stainless (or an option to upgrade). The new screens have potential, wish we knew what the black material is that they showed in the pics? Hard plastic like the Hop containers, or softer that will make a good seal?

The one system I like is the Brew Boss (https://www.brew-boss.com/), it's got a couple of issues that made me stay with the Z, but it has a lot of potential. If it was open source (not required but nice), had an automated enclosed tower to raise the grain hopper and had a way to sparge, it would be the perfect automated system, IMO.

 

[Anyhowe]

I'm starting to consider going another route - like I've stated before, I'm looking for a pretty advanced system, but I don't want to be a guinea pig.

Some things I'm concerned about:
MUST BE connected to Picobrew to brew. If it's like the Zymatic, I'm a little concerned here. I don't see the need, and frankly prefer not to be. A home internet outage should not ruin a brew day.
Longevity of the equipment. I have read enough of the well thought out comments by @Mike Howard that highlight areas for concern.
I am a tinkerer by nature, and I do prefer to have the option of fiddling as I see fit - I did buy the thing, right?
I would really like it if it had a little flexibility in equipment. I would like to brew in a SSbrewtech brewbucket or similar. I want to brew and ferment in there, not kegs... but who knows. I might be able to retrofit something. I don't know how that would work with the Z2 brew setup into multiple kegs.

I am a little intrigued by the SSBrewtech ebiab system. While not automated, I'm assuming it has to have some potential to make my brew days easier. I am still on the fence, but mainly on the Z side.

Good on you for thinking things through.
.
The Z is, from the onset, about automation. If full automation is not at the top of your list there are many other directions to go and all with more flexibility.
.
The WiFi issue can be a pain if you have a weak signal. I do, and yet it has never ruined a brew day.
.
FYI, you don’t have to use the kegs. Just remove the ball lock connections from the lines and plop the hoses in what ever vessel you like. I think the single keg concept rocks. Brew in it, cool in it, ferment in it, and pressure transfer to the serving keg. Nothing could be easier. I like it. YMMV
.
Batch size was never an issue for me, 2.5 seemed perfect for my consumption rate and variety especially with 3-4 kegs on tap. But now that I am also distilling, a 5 gallon batch would be good. But not good enough to plop for a Z2 and 240v for me anyway. But that said the ‘add grains and push a button’ method for a perfect distilling wash from such a small box is grand indeed
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Regarding mike and the other bannedbois, hmmm...nope , not going there. Just be wise where you take councel.
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To wrap I do believe it comes down to your desire (or not) for full automation in a simple platform. If I were a real tinkerer I would build my own auto system. Lots of threads and equipment out there for that. But I think you still have to babysit for hop additions.
.
GL!

 

[Trevor Mack]

For the amount of money you would be insane to not double and triple check your desires and the options that meet those desires.

Near the top of my list is the ability for a mostly hands off brew day. Don't get me wrong I love getting my hands on and having a few of the output out around the fryer with the "guys", but realistically with a second kid on the way the ability to do this for me is becoming less and less unless I want do stay up super late or wake up super early. Having automation here to help with the detailed aspects are perfect for me. Though not everyone needs or wants this level of hands off for sure.

I am a little annoyed at the lack of details in the updates especially with these new "let's introduce you to our juniorest engineer" videos. Crosses fingers that time will pass and more meat/wort will be in the future updates with more senior people like Kevin, etc.

 

[Mike Howard]

Just be wise where you take councel

Exactly....If someone is only pointing out the good, they probably are not wise counsel. I'd bet that a guy who does that works for Picobrew or has some very close tie to them...there are those guys in this forum, but they stay hidden behind their fictitious usernames and keyboards and act like homebrewers.

You don't really need to take anybody's word in this forum, as a quick Google will get you all the info you need to know. And regardless what the employees say, the wifi issue is huge. We live out in the country 5 miles from the nearest town. We are on the edge of where the local company delivers internet, beyond us there is nothing and some folks don't have a hotspot with unlimited data to brew beer. It's just bad engineering to require a connection in order to operate a non-SAAS product.

The Brew-Boss has automated hop additions and automated water fill, so it's a fairly automated system. The only real thing you have to do is raise the grain container prior to boiling. It's a serious consideration if you are looking for something like the Z2 or larger. I'm skeptical about stacking two Zymatics on top of each other and calling it a Z2. Two grain beds, two water vessels? And with no specs on this and no real information about the proces of brewing, I wonder if they have bitten off more than they can chew and how long it will be before they release the first Z2?

 

[Brewfreedom]

Can't wait to see the latest email with a bio on some millennial who's first job outside of university barista was PicoBrew telling us how rad it will be to send Inbev cash for the hipster brewing machine that will be out in July year to be undetermined.

 

[Thorrak]

Can't wait to see the latest email with a bio on some millennial who's first job outside of university barista was PicoBrew telling us how rad it will be to send Inbev cash for the hipster brewing machine that will be out in July year to be undetermined.

This was an A+ post. Very helpful.

 

[Brewfreedom]

This was an A+ post. Very helpful.

I try. This S post was actually fueled by my last Zymatic batch.

 

[Mike Howard]

LOL...

 

[Lax coach]

Can't wait to see the latest email with a bio on some millennial who's first job outside of university barista was PicoBrew telling us how rad it will be to send Inbev cash for the hipster brewing machine that will be out in July year to be undetermined.

Well I guess you're going to be waiting another week. Radio silence again last week...I'm getting very close to cancelling my Z2 and either getting a Brew Boss or a panel and 2-kettle RIMS.

 

[Mike Howard]

The latest update said something about moving the updates to Mondays....hopefully they produce some information with actual substance. I couldn't care less about bio's....I know all I need to know in that deptartment.

 

[Lax coach]

The latest update said something about moving the updates to Mondays....hopefully they produce some information with actual substance. I couldn't care less about bio's....I know all I need to know in that deptartment.

I must have missed that one then. My last update "Putting all Z Pieces Together", Friday Oct 19, said this:

Have a great weekend, and we’ll be back in your inbox next Friday!

 

[Mike Howard]

They posted it on their Twitter account....

 

[Mike Howard]

By the way, their email marketing site is here

 

[Lax coach]

They posted it on their Twitter account....

Got it. I'm probably one of the few 25-year veterans of IT that doesn't do any social media, so I totally missed it.

 

[Trevor Mack]

I also haven't gotten email from them since October... Someone really screwed up their updates. I've mentioned this via Twitter to them... Though they never actually confirmed it.

Also have an email thread I've been complaining about a bunch of their marketing obviously not getting very far. I'm super close to just pulling the plug on this one and ask for money back though not sure how long they would take to fulfill.

That said still no update on their marketing site either.... Maybe they will come out saying they are moving updates back to friday

 

[Mike Howard]

Yea, it appears as though they can't even get the updates out on time, let alone the actual Z's. Gotta make you wonder. But heck, we already knew they over-promise and under-deliver and this has become the norm from them...no sense in waiting anxiously for the update...it'll eventually come out with some excuse about how busy they are....

I was kinda hoping they would update us on a few more internals, as I'm very interested in the wort distribution system.

 

[Gut Pile]

I think my banning was specific to complaining about the spam volume I used to get from them. I actually emailed support and said "Knock it the F off already". Now its silence on the Z. My guess is they are well into next year for the Z. For the poor moron who bought a Z4 thinking he could run a hipster nano pub with it? You aren't going to see that for a while. But hey its only money right?

 

[Thorrak]

I think my banning was specific to complaining about the spam volume I used to get from them. I actually emailed support and said "Knock it the F off already".

If I had to guess, if you actually said those words, that's probably why you got banned. If I was running a company and someone started cursing at my employees I'd probably react similarly.

My guess is they are well into next year for the Z. For the poor moron who bought a Z4 thinking he could run a hipster nano pub with it? You aren't going to see that for a while. But hey its only money right?

If you were seriously interested in trying to open a hipster nano pub, I honestly don't know why you'd go for the Z4. There are better, cheaper systems for brewing 10 gallons at a time - that can be purchased and delivered today. PicoBrew's niche is with the smaller batch sizes - which is why I've got a Z1 on preorder.

I was kinda hoping they would update us on a few more internals, as I'm very interested in the wort distribution system.

I actually brought this up with the PicoBrew reps at GABF. I was glad they had one of the current iterations of the Z step filters there to play with as cleaning/step filter cracking was why I was frustrated with my Zymatic, but was disappointed that they haven't sent emails with concrete details on exactly what they're doing to fix flaws with the original Zymatic design.

 

[Anyhowe]

If I had to guess, if you actually said those words, that's probably why you got banned. If I was running a company and someone started cursing at my employees I'd probably react similarly.



If you were seriously interested in trying to open a hipster nano pub, I honestly don't know why you'd go for the Z4. There are better, cheaper systems for brewing 10 gallons at a time - that can be purchased and delivered today. PicoBrew's niche is with the smaller batch sizes - which is why I've got a Z1 on preorder.



I actually brought this up with the PicoBrew reps at GABF. I was glad they had one of the current iterations of the Z step filters there to play with as cleaning/step filter cracking was why I was frustrated with my Zymatic, but was disappointed that they haven't sent emails with concrete details on exactly what they're doing to fix flaws with the original Zymatic design.

Haha, there are a few idiots on this thread that apparently you are responding to. I am just guessing because I have ignored their content as to why everything PICO is a national disaster and why they are maybe the worst kickstarter that ever existed; no matter what they do.. Simply said it is not worth it. Most credible folks (like those that are actually testing the new Z) have left this thread as a result.

I too would like more relative info. That said I am down with an upgrade of evolutionary improvements as I am with most every technical piece of equipment i own. Until then my Z is going strong. But what is that strange sound when the arm is moving...

FWIW I had a weird issue with one of my several year old KegSmarts. Between Kevin and Doug I had a new one on my doorstep in short order.