Question on finings

[MSK_Chess]

I cannot recall if this has been asked before so here goes. How do you guys deal with polyphenol precipitation when spunding and measures to prevent chill haze and permanent haze? Normally I introduce Reinheitsgebot compliant Polyclar 730 (PVPP and silica gel) and then fine as directed. My beers are usually diamond bright. If you are spunding how do take care of this? Does lagering over time eventually remove them? If so how long are you having to wait until your beers are crystal? Does the introduction of upstream elements like Brewtan have some bearing on clarity? I am planning on fermenting in a Keg and spunding to see if it makes a difference to the beers but clarity for me is a real issue, bears have to be diamond bright at pretty cold temps.

One thing I did noticed when making starters and keeping some yeast over for the next starter was that when keeping yeast in the fridge the starter would eventually become really clear. Is this the same effect as lagering for an extended period? If I just leave the beer long enough will it eventually become crystal clear? Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[Paulaner]

There's a great write-up about trub separation on the other site. Here's a quick synopsis of what I do, skim all hot break off at start and during boil, at flame out chill down to 10° C cause that's as cold as I can get it, let it settle for 30 min with cap on then rack to fermenter leaving all the trub behind. Since I implemented this process my beer is crystal clear typically by the time I start drinking it after roughly 2 weeks of lagering at 0° C.

 

[MSK_Chess]

There's a great write-up about trub separation on the other site. Here's a quick synopsis of what I do, skim all hot break off at start and during boil, at flame out chill down to 10° C cause that's as cold as I can get it, let it settle for 30 min with cap on then rack to fermenter leaving all the trub behind. Since I implemented this process my beer is crystal clear typically by the time I start drinking it after roughly 2 weeks of lagering at 0° C.

As I live in Scotland the ground water is pretty cold and I can get the temp down pretty fast. I could also utilise my chest freezer to drop it even further. Usually the wort going into the kettle is pretty clear. Will cool rapidly and make sure wort going into fermenter is clear and determine if its worth fining or introducing anything else.

I actually solved the problem should I want to introduce anything post fermentation without opening the KEG. I simply use a PET bottle, a carbonation cap and a jumper lead. All it has to be is at a greater pressure than the pressure in the Keg. Was experimenting today with water, works awesome. I can even purge the PET bottle using natural Co2.

 

[mongoose33]

I have two beers right now (done w/ lodo) that have this issue of haziness. Normally (meaning pre-LODO) I'd take a beer that finished at 64 degrees and crash it to 32. About when it got to 50 degrees I'd add gelatin finings.

Worked fabulously, wonderfully clear beers.

But with these, I'm finishing by spunding in the keg, last 5 points to carbonate it. I've let them finish, then crash in the keg. But I'm not adding anything to the keg--what would be the point of all the LODO stuff to open up the lid of the keg?

Those beers are hazy. Tastes great, less clarity.

***************

I suppose if I added finings I could do a purge of the headspace w/ CO2, but it's not pure Co2, and there'd be some O2 coming in there.

On the other hand....as soon as I'm using CO2 to push the perfectly-carbonated and wonderfully-LODO beer out of the keg....I'm introducing the unpure CO2.

So does it not matter if I fine when that's happening anyway?

I have thought about cracking the lid and then hooking up the gas to create a positive pressure as I pour the finings in.......

 

[Die_Beerery]

I really wish folks would drop even the thought of fining. Its a bandaid, and the improper way of thinking about this as a whole. Fix your process, and fining is not even remotely needed..

 

[mongoose33]

I really wish folks would drop even the thought of fining. Its a bandaid, and the improper way of thinking about this as a whole. Fix your process, and fining is not even remotely needed..

Sure, I get that. Meanwhile, what do those of us do who cannot get there right now? LODO is not an easy process to master, if anyone can, and those of us who cannot do a full LODO setup are left looking for answers.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I really wish folks would drop even the thought of fining. Its a bandaid, and the improper way of thinking about this as a whole. Fix your process, and fining is not even remotely needed..

chill haze is caused by protein-polyphenol compounds right? its been my experience that you can follow all the advice in the world, good mash schedule, recirculation, crystal clear work going in to the kettle, good hot break, protein skim, good cold break, use of protofloc/irish moss to precipitate out proteins, filter wort prior to pitching, chill wort, pitch cold and still end up with chill haze. I know i have done all of these things with care and attention, what else do you suggest i do?

 

[Die_Beerery]

You keep practicing.

You (proverbial, all you's proverbial) simply CAN NOT add anything to your beer without DO coming with it. So if you want to fine, drop low oxygen brewing. Or if you want to low oxygen brew, drop fining. Its sadly that black and white. If you can't get good at low oxygen brewing in the first place, how can you master adding finings without picking up DO? Not a knock, a question.

I have ZERO issues with getting brilliantly clear beer using nothing but those methods. Fining doesn't even cross my mind. 4 weeks from brewday I am filtered quality.

https://www.instagram.com/lowoxygenbrewing/

 

[MSK_Chess]

well I guess that will be that then. Back to the old drawing board to sup on some oxybeer.

 

[Big Monk]

Sure, I get that. Meanwhile, what do those of us do who cannot get there right now? LODO is not an easy process to master, if anyone can, and those of us who cannot do a full LODO setup are left looking for answers.

This is a separate issue from LOB. Ask yourself this: If you were brewing using regular methods, and you didn't fine the beer, would it be clear? If yes, then maybe LOB is adding some process roadblocks to clear beer for you. If the answer is no, then it is simply exposing a weakness in your previous process. DB is right, adding finings is not possible on the cold side without the introduction of oxygen. So:

1.) Use BTB and a brewbag.
2.) Get clear wort into the kettle and fermenter. Use kettle finings.
3.) Chill rapidly.
4.) Use the best floccing yeast you can
5.) Lager sufficiently.
6.) Choose ingredients based on their specifications (thinking malt here)

well I guess that will be that then. Back to the old drawing board to sup on some oxybeer.

It's not a dig, it's just a fact that fining is often a bandaid for all types of brewers, LO or not. It just so happens that now you don't have access to it.

Try the clarity thread at our forum:

http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=402

We have had a ton of discussion over there about it and the synopsis in the beginning is a good troubleshooting list.

It's process, process, process when it comes to clarity.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Haven’t some had clearing issues when using Brewtan in the boil? I’ve not had any issues in a long time. When I did have issues it came from my yeast choices.

 

[mongoose33]

Am I reading this right?

Instead of providing a way of using finings to clear the beer while I move toward LODO, the answer is "Too Bad"?

I was drinking a SMASH ale I produced using LODO techniques, and a Cal Common (same thing). Both are hazy. I'd love to present them to others for their comments, but I'd rather not have them be hazy.

So the only answer is "Process"?

There is no way to do it other than that?

 

[Big Monk]

Am I reading this right?

Instead of providing a way of using finings to clear the beer while I move toward LODO, the answer is "Too Bad"?

I was drinking a SMASH ale I produced using LODO techniques, and a Cal Common (same thing). Both are hazy. I'd love to present them to others for their comments, but I'd rather not have them be hazy.

So the only answer is "Process"?

There is no way to do it other than that?

Right. The amount of oxygen introduced would be detrimental. We (the royal homebrewing we) also know from collective experience that gelatin drops out certain desirable flavor and aroma components as well (indiscriminate clearing), which is another reason not to use it. YMMV.

You could try and transfer the beer to another vessel if your process is tight enough and dose the solution inline, but we have no experience using gelatin and LOB together so we can't recommend it.

Sorry.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Am I reading this right?

Instead of providing a way of using finings to clear the beer while I move toward LODO, the answer is "Too Bad"?

I was drinking a SMASH ale I produced using LODO techniques, and a Cal Common (same thing). Both are hazy. I'd love to present them to others for their comments, but I'd rather not have them be hazy.

So the only answer is "Process"?

There is no way to do it other than that?

Dude there is a way. Get a jumper lead, one with a beer connection on one end and a gas connection on the other. A PET bottle and a carbonation cap. Prepare your gelatin with LODO water, transfer it to your PET bottle and put the carbonation cap on. If you can get a PET bottle that fills right up to the top with your gelatin solution 250ml for 5 gallons (i dunno what that is in imperial, maybe a cup?) then fine, but if not you will need to purge the head space in the PET bottle with Co2. Hook your jumper lead up to the keg, gas side first and purge the line with the C02 generated from spunding. Get bottled Co2 and pressurize your PET bottle with the gelatin in it. Attach it you your jumper lead and the greater pressure in the bottle will push the gelatin into the keg and you will have fined your beer in a close loop.

 

[MSK_Chess]

This is a separate issue from LOB. Ask yourself this: If you were brewing using regular methods, and you didn't fine the beer, would it be clear? If yes, then maybe LOB is adding some process roadblocks to clear beer for you. If the answer is no, then it is simply exposing a weakness in your previous process. DB is right, adding finings is not possible on the cold side without the introduction of oxygen. So:

1.) Use BTB and a brewbag.
2.) Get clear wort into the kettle and fermenter. Use kettle finings.
3.) Chill rapidly.
4.) Use the best floccing yeast you can
5.) Lager sufficiently.
6.) Choose ingredients based on their specifications (thinking malt here)



It's not a dig, it's just a fact that fining is often a bandaid for all types of brewers, LO or not. It just so happens that now you don't have access to it.

Try the clarity thread at our forum:

http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=402

We have had a ton of discussion over there about it and the synopsis in the beginning is a good troubleshooting list.

It's process, process, process when it comes to clarity.

sure thing was just having some fun with Die Beerery, its all good.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Haven’t some had clearing issues when using Brewtan in the boil? I’ve not had any issues in a long time. When I did have issues it came from my yeast choices.

really? what yeasts were you using?

 

[mongoose33]

Right. The amount of oxygen introduced would be detrimental. We (the royal homebrewing we) also know from collective experience that gelatin drops out certain desirable flavor and aroma components as well (indiscriminate clearing), which is another reason not to use it. YMMV.

You could try and transfer the beer to another vessel if your process is tight enough and dose the solution inline, but we have no experience using gelatin and LOB together so we can't recommend it.

Sorry.

Of course the oxygen introduced would be detrimental, but how much, how long would negative effects take to be noticeable, and would the lack of haziness offset whatever minor influence such a tiny amount of oxygen would have?

I was talking about this w/ a friend, who proposed purging with fermentation CO2, two kegs linked by a jumper. Finish fermentation in the first, then push that beer into the second, into which would have been introduced the finings just prior. The atmosphere would be almost exclusively CO2, the finings would be in the bottom of the second keg ready to work, and that second keg could then be crashed.

Sounds like that might work, I was hoping for something simpler.

 

[Big Monk]

Of course the oxygen introduced would be detrimental, but how much, how long would negative effects take to be noticeable, and would the lack of haziness offset whatever minor influence such a tiny amount of oxygen would have?

I was talking about this w/ a friend, who proposed purging with fermentation CO2, two kegs linked by a jumper. Finish fermentation in the first, then push that beer into the second, into which would have been introduced the finings just prior. The atmosphere would be almost exclusively CO2, the finings would be in the bottom of the second keg ready to work, and that second keg could then be crashed.

Sounds like that might work, I was hoping for something simpler.

Other than jumping to a new keg or what @MSK_Chess quoted above, there are no simple options.

If you figure another way out, be sure to report results here. I'm sure others are interested.

Personally, I'd rather have a hazy beer with better flavor than a clear beer that has oxygen introduced or flavor stripped from Gelatin.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Are there not some things that we can do upstream to reduce haze besides trying to perceive where our process is faulty if infact it is faulty? Its a darn ( I hope thats not a cuss word) shame to give up on LODO just because of haze. I tried Clarity Ferm once from White Labs, it did produce a clearer beer but not diamond clear like a European Pilsner. That was ages ago though when i was a super noob. I even toyed with the idea of using reduced polyphenol malt like Crisps clear choice although I was reticent because i read that it did not carry the same flavour as a plump spring grown barley malt. Also perhaps the use of some hop extract? not exclusively as its one dimensional but in conjunction with whole hops. I feel the same as mongoose I don't serve hazy beer, its just completely unacceptable.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I don't want this to sound harsh but it is reality at the same time.

I have tried all types of fining and filtering with low oxygen brewing. Never once in all my trials, did I record a method that didn't have considerable o2 pick and flavor detriment, but at the end of the day I am one data point (albeit, I think I easily have the most low oxygen batches under my belt~500 at this point). So thats not to say there is no way, but to me it's a moot point because I don't need it. FWIW, none of the German breweries who practice this method fine, they all filter. Filtering is much easier since you can dump whatever amount you want of the beer that was touched by any oxygen.

SO...The harsh part. Since 2015 I have spent all MY money and time perfecting what is low oxygen brewing, and then bringing it to the masses. I have yet to receive 1 cent from all my time, effort, contributions, materials, tools, and professional book purchasing. Yet everyone has benefited solely on that. I am not saying I want money because of it, not in the least. I am trying to say, if you think there is a way.. Go ahead and buy the tools, run the tests and do it. I really see no need to invest my time and effort into something I find pointless anyways, my time is better spent on tried and true methods and procedures. IMO it's a bit selfish for everyone to rely on us to always put forth the data and time/energy/effort. grab the bull by the horns and have at it! Sorry for the rant.

 

[mongoose33]

Nobody's asking you to test methods. They're asking if you know how to do it. You don't. That's OK. You can't make people have an answer they don't have.

I just posted a thread on an experiment I did w/ Brewtan-B. Nobody paid me for that, either. You're either a person who gives, or you're a person who takes. There's no in-between.

And if it requires money for you to give up what you know, you're not a giver, you're a taker.

************

Part of the problem here--I've posted on this both here and the low oxygen site--is whether partial methods yield discernable and good results. It sounds from the way you respond there's no middle ground. You either do it perfectly, or you fail.

If you really want to sing the song of LODO brewing, you need to encourage people to try. If I have to do everything perfectly before I perceive a positive result, then not I, nor many people, will even attempt it.

I'm trained as a scientist. The only way I know to test this kind of thing is to try to test it. But I can't yet do what some are able to do. Does that mean it's all for naught?

I don't think so--but the way you respond, @Die_Beerery, makes it sound as if the only way to get to heaven is to live a perfectly sinless life.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I don't want this to sound harsh but it is reality at the same time.

I have tried all types of fining and filtering with low oxygen brewing. Never once in all my trials, did I record a method that didn't have considerable o2 pick and flavor detriment, but at the end of the day I am one data point (albeit, I think I easily have the most low oxygen batches under my belt~500 at this point). So thats not to say there is no way, but to me it's a moot point because I don't need it. FWIW, none of the German breweries who practice this method fine, they all filter. Filtering is much easier since you can dump whatever amount you want of the beer that was touched by any oxygen.

SO...The harsh part. Since 2015 I have spent all MY money and time perfecting what is low oxygen brewing, and then bringing it to the masses. I have yet to receive 1 cent from all my time, effort, contributions, materials, tools, and professional book purchasing. Yet everyone has benefited solely on that. I am not saying I want money because of it, not in the least. I am trying to say, if you think there is a way.. Go ahead and buy the tools, run the tests and do it. I really see no need to invest my time and effort into something I find pointless anyways, my time is better spent on tried and true methods and procedures. IMO it's a bit selfish for everyone to rely on us to always put forth the data and time/energy/effort. grab the bull by the horns and have at it! Sorry for the rant.

I always wondered how German breweries do it. Filtering you say, how interesting. What type of filters, do you know? I heard that Guinness who are also committed to low oxygen use ceramic filters. I actually filtered my wort prior to pitching last time using a wound filter. was awesome, i got super clean yeast after primary was over.

 

[Big Monk]

Nobody's asking you to test methods. They're asking if you know how to do it. You don't. That's OK. You can't make people have an answer they don't have.

I just posted a thread on an experiment I did w/ Brewtan-B. Nobody paid me for that, either. You're either a person who gives, or you're a person who takes. There's no in-between.

And if it requires money for you to give up what you know, you're not a giver, you're a taker.

************

Part of the problem here--I've posted on this both here and the low oxygen site--is whether partial methods yield discernable and good results. It sounds from the way you respond there's no middle ground. You either do it perfectly, or you fail.

If you really want to sing the song of LODO brewing, you need to encourage people to try. If I have to do everything perfectly before I perceive a positive result, then not I, nor many people, will even attempt it.

I'm trained as a scientist. The only way I know to test this kind of thing is to try to test it. But I can't yet do what some are able to do. Does that mean it's all for naught?

I don't think so--but the way you respond, @Die_Beerery, makes it sound as if the only way to get to heaven is to live a perfectly sinless life.

The real problem is you are conflating LOB and having clarity problems. Clarity problems are a result of bad process not failed or partial LOB.

Hence our recommendation to get your process (regular good ole brewing process, not LOB) in order.

Post fermentation fining is a bandaid no matter what methods you use.

We don’t use it so we don’t have any advice.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I always wondered how German breweries do it. Filtering you say, how interesting. What type of filters, do you know? I heard that Guinness who are also committed to low oxygen use ceramic filters. I actually filtered my wort prior to pitching last time using a wound filter. was awesome, i got super clean yeast after primary was over.

It’s all in Kunze.

 

[FunkedOut]

If fining with gelatin is considered indiscriminate clearing,
would not the same hold true for filtering?
Why would one be acceptable and not the other?
Tradition?

I’ve been fining as @MSK_Chess ecplsins earlier in this thread.
I actually shoot it into the gas post of a 10 gallon corny keg.
I’ve boiled the water, then added the gelatin, then purged the PET bottle by collapsing it with the gelatin in it and pressurizing and releasing 50psi a few times.
I’ve cut out the O2 from the cold side even before reading about LOB as it makes sense.
After reading about LOB, the hot side makes sense too.

I’ll say this, beers I’ve brewed under pressure (15psi), are hazy compared to the same beers brewed by me with no pressure. Everything else held constant, including fining.
I’m not sure how to go about fixing that process other than not fermenting under pressure.
The pressure fermented beers are clear, just not brilliant as before.

 

[Dog House Brew]

If fining with gelatin is considered indiscriminate clearing,
would not the same hold true for filtering?
Why would one be acceptable and not the other?
Tradition?

I’ve been fining as @MSK_Chess ecplsins earlier in this thread.
I actually shoot it into the gas post of a 10 gallon corny keg.
I’ve boiled the water, then added the gelatin, then purged the PET bottle by collapsing it with the gelatin in it and pressurizing and releasing 50psi a few times.
I’ve cut out the O2 from the cold side even before reading about LOB as it makes sense.
After reading about LOB, the hot side makes sense too.

I’ll say this, beers I’ve brewed under pressure (15psi), are hazy compared to the same beers brewed by me with no pressure. Everything else held constant, including fining.
I’m not sure how to go about fixing that process other than not fermenting under pressure.
The pressure fermented beers are clear, just not brilliant as before.

Interesting, I’ve not fermented under pressure/yet. I just got a few spunding valves. I would not have thought about it possibly causing haze.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Personally i don't want to use finings myself. To say that its a problem with process i don't think is fully substantiated because we can have good process and still have protein polyphenol present in our product. As Scotty has stated its not a problem of low oxygen process although to be fair no one has claimed that it is. Its simply a mater of fact, beer contains these elements from malt and hops and as brewers we need to take measures to reduce their effect. I think Die Beerery advice is sound though, we need to experiment and pay special attention to those areas of concern. Maybe a full volume BIAB is best for sparging has been shown to be a cause of polyphenol leaching especially in the latter stages if precautions to tackle the rise in pH are not taken. Maybe a full volume BIAB negates this concern entirely? I dunno. Maybe we are impatient and need to try longer lagering periods? or hop extracts? The point is that we really should be experimenting and for me that would mean doing smaller batches or splitting batches. Let the learning continue, its an education for sure.

 

[Big Monk]

If fining with gelatin is considered indiscriminate clearing,
would not the same hold true for filtering?
Why would one be acceptable and not the other?
Tradition?

Well, there is no difference really, as filtering also strips out malt and hop flavor. Commercial breweries typically account for this in recipe design, which means that, like water profiles, you have to take a commercial recipe of a brewery that filters with a grain of salt when adapting it to this setting.

Most people don’t have the setup for filtering. Even if they did, our stance would be the same. We’ve tested filtering, and in addition to the flavor stripping (which can be easily account for with recipe design), there was a significant introduction of oxygen.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Well, there is no difference really, as filtering also strips out malt and hop flavor. Commercial breweries typically account for this in recipe design, which means that, like water profiles, you have to take a commercial recipe of a brewery that filters with a grain of salt when adapting it to this setting.

Most people don’t have the setup for filtering. Even if they did, our stance would be the same. We’ve tested filtering, and in addition to the flavor stripping (which can be easily account for with recipe design), there was a significant introduction of oxygen.

Interesting, what type of filters did you tests Scotty? canister filters? Normally canister filters are pretty air tight, come with a gasket and can take a fair amount of pressure depending on the design. One could theoretically purge it with pure Co2 from the fermentation or spund just as we do the receiving keg. There is also an incredibly broad variation in the quality of filters. I suspect that one would need an absolute filter and if we are filtering for clarity i.e to remove haze causing polyphenol-protein complexes we would need to go pretty low, maybe even sterile. I used to filter using a 5 micron and a 1 micron but it did not always have the desired effect on haze. Sure the beer was clear but not diamond clear. I still don't understand what you guys are doing that we guys are not to reduce polyphenol protein compounds.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Are you LODO brewers still using Brewtan in the boil?

 

[Big Monk]

I still don't understand what you guys are doing that we guys are not to reduce polyphenol protein compounds.

Malt selection is a huge deal for us. We (Beerery and I) use only Weyermann malts and we consult the malt analysis sheets for all batches. Understanding the specifications of the malt you use is a huge deal. One of the worst parts, IMHO, about using non-Weyermann malts is the lack of useful malts sheets (if they are even available). Combine that with the fact that many homebrewers are buying thier grains by the pound and not even getting access to the malt analysis and you can have issues when using it.

Another reason for success for us might be lower overall hop usage. Much of what Beerery and I brew are either Lagers or Trappist ales (both much lower on the BU spectrum) so hop loading is much lower. For hoppier beers, a substitution of hop extract injected when transferring to spund may be a nice replacement for dry hopping.

As we've stated in other places, this is a basic blueprint for success as far as clarity is concerned:



1.) Know your ingredients (read and understand the malt analysis)
2.) Mash with a bag/BTB in mash
3.) Utilize mash recirculation and no-sparge (set grain bed and no disturbance)
4.) If using copper (or just if you think it will help) use BTB in boil
5.) Use kettle finings (whirlfloc, Irish moss)
6.) Remove hot break (whirlpool)
7.) Precipitate cold break and remove (chill fast and whirlpool)
8.) Use as high a floccing yeast as you can get away with
9.) Pitch trub free healthy yeast
10.) Carry over as little yeast as possible to serving vessel (while still getting the right carbonation)
11.) Lager properly (time and temperature)

 

[Big Monk]

Are you LODO brewers still using Brewtan in the boil?

Beerery or I don't personally use it in the boil but that's another tool for people to use in conjunction with kettle finings.

 

[Dog House Brew]

What I thought, I've read that it can cause haze in the finished product when used in the boil. I thought it should be mentioned if they are using it in the boil.

 

[Big Monk]

What I thought, I've read that it can cause haze in the finished product when used in the boil. I thought it should be mentioned if they are using it in the boil.

We've chalked up those anecdotal observations as user error. The times we have used it in boil, we followed the dosing instructions and instructions for preparing it and had no issues.

 

[FunkedOut]

@RPIScotty thanks for that checklist.

I’m an offender on a few of those:

While I do use a bag for full volume mash with controlled ph, I do not recirculate the mash and I really disturb the grain bed when I pull the bag out and squeeze.

I use a copper immersion chiller but no BTB.

Most times, the aging/lagering period is disrupted temperature wise as my storage freezer is my fermentation freezer. I’ll pull out the kegged and carbonated beer to make room for the next fermentation. Those kegs can sit a few weeks at ~72*F before getting back down to proper temps.

First thing last, what in the malt sheet are you looking for?
Protein content?
How would one adjust for that?
Or is it simply a matter of selecting low protein malt?
Maybe I should’ve stopped at the first question as I know not what I speak.

 

[Big Monk]

@RPIScotty thanks for that checklist.
While I do use a bag for full volume mash with controlled ph, I do not recirculate the mash and I really disturb the grain bed when I pull the bag out and squeeze.

Squeezing = good for efficiency, bad for clarity.

Or is it simply a matter of selecting low protein malt?

Yup.

 

[Dog House Brew]

We've chalked up those anecdotal observations as user error. The times we have used it in boil, we followed the dosing instructions and instructions for preparing it and had no issues.

This is good to know. I bought it when I had a lot of copper in my system. Since spending the time to rework my equipment to reduce the copper, I thought I may have wasted the money. Good to know thanks. My last change will be stainless on the chill side.
The shared information is appreciated.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Malt selection is a huge deal for us. We (Beerery and I) use only Weyermann malts and we consult the malt analysis sheets for all batches. Understanding the specifications of the malt you use is a huge deal. One of the worst parts, IMHO, about using non-Weyermann malts is the lack of useful malts sheets (if they are even available). Combine that with the fact that many homebrewers are buying thier grains by the pound and not even getting access to the malt analysis and you can have issues when using it.

Another reason for success for us might be lower overall hop usage. Much of what Beerery and I brew are either Lagers or Trappist ales (both much lower on the BU spectrum) so hop loading is much lower. For hoppier beers, a substitution of hop extract injected when transferring to spund may be a nice replacement for dry hopping.

As we've stated in other places, this is a basic blueprint for success as far as clarity is concerned:



1.) Know your ingredients (read and understand the malt analysis)
2.) Mash with a bag/BTB in mash
3.) Utilize mash recirculation and no-sparge (set grain bed and no disturbance)
4.) If using copper (or just if you think it will help) use BTB in boil
5.) Use kettle finings (whirlfloc, Irish moss)
6.) Remove hot break (whirlpool)
7.) Precipitate cold break and remove (chill fast and whirlpool)
8.) Use as high a floccing yeast as you can get away with
9.) Pitch trub free healthy yeast
10.) Carry over as little yeast as possible to serving vessel (while still getting the right carbonation)
11.) Lager properly (time and temperature)

1. Ok this makes sense we don't want to have poor conversion of residual starch or B-glucan
2. Mashing with a bag makes sense if we want to avoid particulates but with good practice getting a super clear wort is not a problem even without one. The elements we are interested in are not really particulates such as flour or the odd grain but soluble haze precursors. I am not sure if BTB targets these haze forming precursors, it might, I dunno but its my understanding that its generally used for the chelation of copper ions for those of us with copper wort chillers. On saying that there are some claims that it does aid clarity. Perhaps if anyone knows anything about this they can let it be known. It would be great if it did.
3. Sure no sparge makes sense because over sparging can result in super high concentrations of soluble haze causing precursors from last runnings. No sparge, no problem, panic over.
4. Already covered
5. Yes i suspect we all use kettle finings.
6. Check, whirlpool yes.
7. yes. ( I even filter my wort pre pitching, it goes into the fermenter clean)
8. Perhaps some suggestions for yeast.
9. trub free, yes, its all good.
10. Again yeast will flocculate out, its not really this that causes haze (although it can), its these soluble proteins and polyphenols.
11. Lagering takes patience for sure. Actually i have to adjust my perspective about lagering. Normally i just chill to 0 Celsius, 30F i believe, but I was reading that we really don't want to chill the yeast into sleep, we want it to remain active when lagering. Perhaps chilling to 4 Celsius for an extended period might be better so that the yeast remains active for the lagering period?

These are just some thoughts. Its not aimed at anyone.

 

[Big Monk]

1. Ok this makes sense we don't want to have poor conversion of residual starch or B-glucan
2. Mashing with a bag makes sense if we want to avoid particulates but with good practice getting a super clear wort is not a problem even without one. The elements we are interested in are not really particulates such as flour or the odd grain but soluble haze precursors. I am not sure if BTB targets these haze forming precursors, it might, I dunno but its my understanding that its generally used for the chelation of copper ions for those of us with copper wort chillers. On saying that there are some claims that it does aid clarity. Perhaps if anyone knows anything about this they can let it be known. It would be great if it did.
3. Sure no sparge makes sense because over sparging can result in super high concentrations of soluble haze causing precursors from last runnings. No sparge, no problem, panic over.
4. Already covered
5. Yes i suspect we all use kettle finings.
6. Check, whirlpool yes.
7. yes. ( I even filter my wort pre pitching, it goes into the fermenter clean)
8. Perhaps some suggestions for yeast.
9. trub free, yes, its all good.
10. Again yeast will flocculate out, its not really this that causes haze (although it can), its these soluble proteins and polyphenols.
11. Lagering takes patience for sure. Actually i have to adjust my perspective about lagering. Normally i just chill to 0 Celsius, 30F i believe, but I was reading that we really don't want to chill the yeast into sleep, we want it to remain active when lagering. Perhaps chilling to 4 Celsius for an extended period might be better so that the yeast remains active for the lagering period?

These are just some thoughts. Its not aimed at anyone.

You used the checklist like an Engineer would...

Identifying issues is all about laying out your current methods against a known successful process. Then you troubleshoot much in the way you did above.

When I am not getting the results I want, I write out a checklist of how my good pal Die Beerery does it and I compare what i'm doing against his known (and successful) process structure. I typically find my issues pretty readily after doing that.

 

[MSK_Chess]

You used the checklist like an Engineer would...

Identifying issues is all about laying out your current methods against a known successful process. Then you troubleshoot much in the way you did above.

When I am not getting the results I want, I write out a checklist of how my good pal Die Beerery does it and I compare what i'm doing against his known (and successful) process structure. I typically find my issues pretty readily after doing that.

LOL, I used to love engineering science when i was in school, calculating the ductility of metal, the stress of beams, was too awesome. Anyway, there may be a case to state that low oxygen brewing be infact contribute to the prevention of haze because of the oxidization of flavinoids. No oxygen and no polymerization.