Spunding question

[mongoose33]

OK, brewed last weekend (Saturday). California Common. Fermentation goes like gangbusters, by Tuesday the krausen has fallen. I take a sample, gravity is 1.017; I expect it to end at 1.012, so those 5 points should let the beer self-carbonate. I rack to keg, and let it go.

I taste the hydrometer sample; wowee! Tasty, tasty beer--and it's warm, uncarbonated, and not fully attenuated. I can't wait until it's done.

I kept it at 64 degrees for a day or so, then began to run it up to 71, then yesterday back down to 64. So today, Saturday, it's been a week. I have a pressure valve, it's pretty pressurized.

So today, for grins, I draw off a sample to check it, and it's not really very carbonated. Lots of headspace pressure as that beer came racing out of the picnic tap. And a bit yeasty. Of course.

***********

How long should I expect this to take, for the beer to carbonate before I crash it? It tasted pretty good, but lots of sediment of course which I hope will disappear in the first couple of glasses when it's time to serve.

I didn't take a sample, so I'm not sure that it's quite done yet.

 

[seabrew8]

I'm trying pressurised fermentation now from my reading lots of people are doing different things.

I actually have my value set to 20psi - day 3 after pitching. One guys told me he's using 14 for the whole fermentation - ale temps - and its carbonated after 12 hours cool crash and on the gas - serving pressure.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I am sure there were recommendations mongoose for like temp and Psi, Ale i think was like 30 psi but i forget the temp and Lager 10psi, again i forget the temp.

 

[MSK_Chess]

For ales we like to use 30psi (68f) and lagers I like to use 10psi (45-47F), so make sure and set appropriately.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/fermenter-to-keg-spunding/

 

[seabrew8]

For ales we like to use 30psi (68f) and lagers I like to use 10psi (45-47F), so make sure and set appropriately.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/fermenter-to-keg-spunding/

When do you pressurise the beer?

 

[MSK_Chess]

When do you pressurise the beer?

My understanding is (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that you transfer from primary fermenter to spunding keg when beer is 4-6 gravity points away from its estimated final gravity. As the beer continues to ferment it will naturally pressurize in the keg.

 

[seabrew8]

My understanding is (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that you transfer from primary fermenter to spunding keg when beer is 4-6 gravity points away from its estimated final gravity. As the beer continues to ferment it will naturally pressurize in the keg.

Yeah many do that.

I'm actually fermenting - this time, first time using my new unit, 3 days in - under pressure, i have a fermentasaurus.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Yeah many do that.

I'm actually fermenting - this time, first time using my new unit, 3 days in - under pressure, i have a fermentasaurus.

I so wanted a fermentasaurus but it would mean getting a new fridge/freezer etc I watched a recent beersmith podcast where they were experimenting with fermenting Lagers under pressure at higher temps as far as 30psi which i think is just within the limits of a fermentasaurus

 

[MSK_Chess]

It appears to me that essentially we are trying to be as Reinheitsgebot compliant as is possible with the knowledge and equipment that we have at our disposal. I read recently that German breweries are not allowed under the purity laws to force carbonate with anything other than naturally produced Co2 thus the purging of kegs and forced carbonation via spunding all must be part of the entire process. It fills me with glee to try to make the process as natural as possible.

 

[seabrew8]

I literally just started reading about low oxygen german brewing the last few days - very not KISS.

My main reason for the pressure vessel was hopefully quicker carbonated beer and you can ferment higher then recommended temps.

 

[mongoose33]

I appreciate the responses, but I still am looking for an answer to this question:

How long should I expect this to take, for the beer to carbonate before I crash it?

 

[FunkedOut]

forever and a day.
I think you missed the train on this one.

Natural carbonation is not like forced, it doesn’t take time for the beer to absorb CO2.
The yeast is producing CO2 in the beer in the tiniest of bubbles. Think of them like a super fine carbing stone that is as big as the volume of beer.
CO2 leaves the beer to pressurize the headspace.
Once it’s gone it’s gone forever.
The headspace pressure (spunding valve setting) determines how much you keep.
You’ll only keep as much as you had during your highest temp, lowest pressure combo. You can use a force carbonation chart to pick your pressure for your temp and desired volumes.

Being an ale yeast at those temps for 10 days, I’d say CO2 production is done. YMMV.

 

[MSK_Chess]

This is a pretty good article on making lagers.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

 

[mongoose33]

forever and a day.
I think you missed the train on this one.

Natural carbonation is not like forced, it doesn’t take time for the beer to absorb CO2.
The yeast is producing CO2 in the beer in the tiniest of bubbles. Think of them like a super fine carbing stone that is as big as the volume of beer.
CO2 leaves the beer to pressurize the headspace.
Once it’s gone it’s gone forever.
The headspace pressure (spunding valve setting) determines how much you keep.
You’ll only keep as much as you had during your highest temp, lowest pressure combo. You can use a force carbonation chart to pick your pressure for your temp and desired volumes.

Being an ale yeast at those temps for 10 days, I’d say CO2 production is done. YMMV.

Thank you. I suspected that but haven't found any place that SAYS it. I'm going to crash that beer tonite, and see how it is tomorrow.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I have a spunding question. We spund at 10psi and say 10 Celsius. Once the yeast has eaten everything and will produce no more Co2 and as we cool the Lager to Lagering temps will not the solution absorb more Co2 and our pressure will be reduced? How do we address the disparity? Is this crazee talk and there is no need to address any imbalance as the volume of Co2 will remain constant regardless of temperature? Or perhaps there is some other parameter like a cooling liquid contracting that may effect the pressure? or perhaps its not that much to be concerned with?

 

[stpug]

@mongoose33 Regarding your question "How long should I expect this to take, for the beer to carbonate before I crash it?": After spunding, you wait until you reach your FG. Once there, you won't be getting any additional carbonation from fermentation. At this point in the process, you have the most vols of co2 you're going to get from spunding. Obviously, the goal is to hit full carbonation at this point. If you're too high or too low, then you'll need to adjust your process for the next batch. Vols too high? You can either bleed off some pressure or pour off some beer (i.e. increase headspace for the co2 to escape into). Vols too low? You can krausen, keg prime, or force carb - each having a more/lesser impact on flavor/aroma and stability.

@MSK_Chess This is my understanding of how this all works.... Spunding at 10psi at 10C (~50F) will result in ~1.9vols carbonation. This carb level will be the carbonation level of your beer indefinitely (assuming no leaks or additional co2 is used). There is no disparity; it will be this level at warm and low temps alike (perhaps there could be a minute difference in finished vols due to shrinkage but I suspect it would be extremely negligible - i.e. 0.01vol loss). 1.9vols is a somewhat low carb level by most standards, but if that's your intended goal then you'll hit the carbonation level you desire. Once you generate a carbonation level in the beer, it will remain that way until acted upon (either by venting/bleeding/increased headspace such that it loses carbonation [or rather, spread out the existing carbonation level to a larger void], or by hitting with more co2). The temperature of the beer will simply cause the loss of carbonation to happen more quickly/slowly once it's exposed to the atmosphere. Using the 1.9vols carb level above, this will serve as a somewhat lowly carbonated beer when coming out of a 36F serving tank but it will resemble your expected outcome; however, if you serve this 1.9vols beer at room temp then it will generate large foam (carbonation rapidly coming out of solution) and very quickly lose more carbonation resulting in a beer that tastes mostly flat upon first sip. The temperature of the beer and the fact that it's isolated from atmospheric pressure is what allows it to "hold on" to it's carbonation.

 

[MSK_Chess]

ok thats makes complete sense. Thanks so much

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33 Regarding your question "How long should I expect this to take, for the beer to carbonate before I crash it?": After spunding, you wait until you reach your FG. Once there, you won't be getting any additional carbonation from fermentation. At this point in the process, you have the most vols of co2 you're going to get from spunding. Obviously, the goal is to hit full carbonation at this point. If you're too high or too low, then you'll need to adjust your process for the next batch. Vols too high? You can either bleed off some pressure or pour off some beer (i.e. increase headspace for the co2 to escape into). Vols too low? You can krausen, keg prime, or force carb - each having a more/lesser impact on flavor/aroma and stability.

I think I should have phrased the question differently, as in whether increased pressure during fermentation will influence the length of time during which fermentation finishes.

I just ran off some last night to check; pretty carbonated, I thought. I'm in the process of crashing it right now. I'm anxious to see how it tastes cold and with the yeast dropped out.

Speaking of that, do people just accept they're going to get flocculated yeast during the first few pours, or do they tend to cut the dip tube?

 

[MSK_Chess]

I think I should have phrased the question differently, as in whether increased pressure during fermentation will influence the length of time during which fermentation finishes.

I just ran off some last night to check; pretty carbonated, I thought. I'm in the process of crashing it right now. I'm anxious to see how it tastes cold and with the yeast dropped out.

Speaking of that, do people just accept they're going to get flocculated yeast during the first few pours, or do they tend to cut the dip tube?

I think it does because increased pressure inhibits growth much like temperature inhibits/increases growth. It also inhibits things like esters. According to Chris White the yeast metabolism starts to slow down at about 15psi.

 

[MSK_Chess]

 

[MSK_Chess]

I have been really wondering about pressure and its effect on yeast metabolism. On the lowoxygen site they recommend spunding for Ales at 30psi at a temperature of 20 Celsius (68F), 30psi is pretty high I would imagine if according to Chris white metabolism in yeast starts to slow down near 15psi. I wonder if this slow down in yeast metabolism has been accounted for and is being offset by the slightly raised temperature? Normally i like to ferment my ales on the cooler side of 18C.

Your spunding pressure is going to vary with the temperature at which you allow fermentation to finish. For ales we like to use 30psi (68f) and lagers I like to use 10psi (45-47F), so make sure and set appropriately.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/fermenter-to-keg-spunding/

 

[Die_Beerery]

Spunding and fermenting under pressure are 2 very different animals.

 

[mongoose33]

Spunding and fermenting under pressure are 2 very different animals.

And the difference would be?

 

[Big Monk]

And the difference would be?

With spunding, the bulk of fermentation takes place at atmospheric pressure. You are only pressurizing the beer as the last 1% of extract finishes fermentation.

Flavor profile in many beers is drastically altered by fermenting the entire time under pressure, most notably ester synthesis and higher alcohol production.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Spunding and fermenting under pressure are 2 very different animals.

Sure thing. I just wondered if 30psi might slow down the metabolism of the yeast so it may take slightly longer to ferment out? Rather interestingly the Beersmith podcast stated that Mr. Blichman fermented WLP833 at 15psi and 30psi but the panel of tasters actually preferred the traditionally cold fermented Lager at atmospheric pressure

 

[MSK_Chess]

With spunding, the bulk of fermentation takes place at atmospheric pressure. You are only pressurizing the beer as the last 1% of extract finishes fermentation.

Flavor profile in many beers is drastically altered by fermenting the entire time under pressure, most notably ester synthesis and higher alcohol production.

sure thing Scotty but we are not confusing spunding with fermenting under pressure. Its just that the yeast will be subject to the same parameters as a pressure fermentation for the relatively short time it takes to ferment out the last little sugars. I just wondered if it takes longer than it would at atmospheric pressure.

 

[seabrew8]

sure thing Scotty but we are not confusing spunding with fermenting under pressure. Its just that the yeast will be subject to the same parameters as a pressure fermentation for the relatively short time it takes to ferment out the last little sugars. I just wondered if it takes longer than it would at atmospheric pressure.

I will let you know in a day or 2. Fermenting a helles export now with 34/70 at room temp - 20-21C. Spunding valve set to low 20's. Only 3 days in and the krausen is pretty well gone. But it doesn't get very big anyway when using pressure.

Just removed the trub and took a sample. Tastes good, no off flavours. I had alot more suplur notes when i used saflager s-23 last week. Just cleaning up now i think 5 days in the keg.

 

[bleme]

When I was bottling, I'd always try a bottle after a week. I'd get a bigger hiss than normal when I popped the cap, but the beer itself seemed undercarbed. Bottles that went at least 2 weeks at room temp and 3 days in the fridge performed better. Since a keg is really just a big bottle, I'm not surprised you are seeing similar results.

When I naturally carbonate in the keg, I usually cold crash first to drop out most of the yeast, transfer to the keg and bring back to room temperature for 3 weeks, then 1 week in the fridge.

 

[Die_Beerery]

sure thing Scotty but we are not confusing spunding with fermenting under pressure. Its just that the yeast will be subject to the same parameters as a pressure fermentation for the relatively short time it takes to ferment out the last little sugars. I just wondered if it takes longer than it would at atmospheric pressure.

For a very short time yes. However if there is any longer time frame it's likely due to the bulk of the yeast being left in the fermenter and us trying to use the lazy yeast thats left to do our carbonation. I personally do not see a large lag in time. Spund day 5 done day 7 with lagers at 45-47f, and spund on day 3 and done on day 4 for ales (63-67f).

 

[seabrew8]

I will let you know in a day or 2. Fermenting a helles export now with 34/70 at room temp - 20-21C. Spunding valve set to low 20's. Only 3 days in and the krausen is pretty well gone. But it doesn't get very big anyway when using pressure.

Just removed the trub and took a sample. Tastes good, no off flavours. I had alot more suplur notes when i used saflager s-23 last week. Just cleaning up now i think 5 days in the keg.

Day 6 after pitch. 1054-1010 SG. Just kegged.

 

[MSK_Chess]

The foam and the head retention you get with spunding is amazing. The foam is like ice cream and lasts for ages.

 

[Dland]

Where would you fit the diacetyl rest in when spunding a lager?

 

[FunkedOut]

Same place in timeline as if you weren’t spunding.
You have to increase the setting on the spunding valve to keep from venting all your carbonation as the temp rises.

 

[Dland]

Same place in timeline as if you weren’t spunding.
You have to increase the setting on the spunding valve to keep from venting all your carbonation as the temp rises.

Thanks, I usually D rest with heat jacket on fermentor, so I guess I'll have to time my rack down differently.

This brings up another question; anyone know of a simple way to determine how full you kegs are when doing a pressure rack down? I do not have sight glasses on conicals, I could probably braze some on, but it would not be pretty, as these are thin walled SS and seems like it could also add a contamination risk. I use pin lock C kegs, I know they are not the best, but I have a lot of them and can not replace anytime soon.

OK, in formulating the last question, I just came up with a solution I will try, thought I'd share: Use my HVAC refrigerant scale and calibrate level of fill by weight. Any other simple methods people use?

Am kind of exited about this LoDO, especially as it applies to the cold side. For a while I have noticed a flavor degrade as I get toward bottoms of kegs. Eliminating the forced carbonation should help. I did not know commercial CO2 had O2 in it before this.

 

[FunkedOut]

I use a scale myself.
Beer usually comes out of the gas post at 40-41 pounds.

 

[Dland]

Well, just did my first closed transfer, before I dumped the beer in CO2 filled tanks and did a few purges of headspace.

Each keg took around 40#s beer, around 10# tare. Picture of transfer set up, and my fill in spunge valve I made from stuff around. Have some pressure set valves on the way. CO2 going in top in airlock opening to displace beer as it leaves fermentor.

My normal keg cleaning procedure includes purging and sealing kegs at around 10# PSI CO2, to make sure seal was good and store in o2 free conditions.

Now we see how spunding goes, sg is around 1.013, with expected fsg at 1.008

Anyone see any problems or improvements I could make, let me know, am new to this procedure.

 

[GoeHaarden]

So, I get the whole premise of spunding but my question is how/when are you all checking gravities prior to transferring into the spunding keg?

It seems like a Tilt would be great for this, but I can't yet bring myself to spend $130 to trend something that I already know is happening. Maybe this is where they shine...

So, are you all doing daily gravity readings after krausen? Or what's your method to allow yourself enough points for spunding?

Thanks!

 

[Dland]

So, I get the whole premise of spunding but my question is how/when are you all checking gravities prior to transferring into the spunding keg?

It seems like a Tilt would be great for this, but I can't yet bring myself to spend $130 to trend something that I already know is happening. Maybe this is where they shine...

So, are you all doing daily gravity readings after krausen? Or what's your method to allow yourself enough points for spunding?

Thanks!

I take a gravity reading each time I do a trub dump. Usually I do two or three, timed based on yeast activity. When fermentation slows down a bit, good time to do 2nd or 3rd dump, then decide by gravity if you want to go another day or two or rack to kegs and spund. You can always let more CO2 off if it gets above target pressure for the temperature it is at..

 

[zeptrey]

Anybody else have issue with their spunding valves not reseating.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I take a gravity reading each time I do a trub dump. Usually I do two or three, timed based on yeast activity. When fermentation slows down a bit, good time to do 2nd or 3rd dump, then decide by gravity if you want to go another day or two or rack to kegs and spund. You can always let more CO2 off if it gets above target pressure for the temperature it is at..

I, unfortunately, don't have a conical yet. I figured I would just take a gravity reading a day after krausen peaked, and go from there.

Would there be any ill effects from transferring too early? Let's say like mid-1.020s? The only thing I can think of is just transferring more yeast than usual which will be handled by cold crash anyways. I just built a spunding valve, and it'll bleed off excess pressure then reseal.

So my plan is to check gravity a day after high krausen, if its below 1.025, rack to keg and set spunding valve to desired pressure (21.6psi @ 60F). Let it go a full two weeks post pitching. Then just throw in the kegerator at serving pressure, and wait a few days to crash the yeast out. Will this work? And more inline with the OP, is ~10 days long enough to carb it?