Stout God stole the body from my beers :\

[st1l3tto]

Hi there!

I'm struggling a lot to brew full-bodied sweet stout. Maybe it's because I missed last Stout Day (and the one before) and didn't made a black liquid sacrifice Or maybe because I miss some very important concept, however I have already read and tried a lot.

So, any help is welcome.

I brew on Co-Brew single-vessel solid-walls BIABasket. All water is RO.

Most recent recipe:
4 lbs BEST Munich Dark (28,0 EBC) 35,2%
4 lbs BEST Pale Ale (6,0 EBC) 35,2%
0,7 lb Château Oat (2,3 EBC) 6,3%
0,6 lb Château Café Light® (250,2 EBC) 5,6%
0,5 lb Caraaroma (350,7 EBC) 4,2%
0,5 lb Carafa Special II (817,5 EBC) 4,2%
0,15 lb Chocolate Wheat (817,5 EBC)1,4%
(Caraaroma, Carafa & Chocowheat added 10 min before mash-out).
0,9 lb of lactose added 15 min before boil.
S-04 yeast.

OG: 1,063. FG: 1,017. ABV: 6,0%.
Mash temp: 158F. Mashout temp: 168F.

Water:
Ca: 70ppm
Mg: 12,7ppm
Na: 60,3ppm
SO4: 50ppm
Cl: 129ppm
HCO3: 149ppm.
NaCL: 0,2g; MgSO4: 2,6g; CaCL: 5,2g; NaHCO3: 4,2g.

Mash PH before putting dark malts in was 5,53 (5,50 expected).

All numbers were in place, FG hit successfully. I try it after fermentation... and the body is not present. Malts are fine, no astringency or burns, but simply no body at all, seems very watery and MUCH far from what I'd expect and what I tasted in good sweet stouts.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[day_trippr]

I know some would disagree but to me a 60-something point recipe = a mild porter. And thus I will admit to a rather large bias on this, but imo if you want a big stout you're going to have to up the voltage - the OG - and let the FG follow. I brew IPAs that are at least ten points higher than your "stout" recipe and end only a couple/few points lower FG and they in no way have the body I like in a big stout.

The stout I always keep on tap (above anything else!) starts out at 1.106-107 and finishes around 1.028. Even non-beer drinkers love it...

Cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

Remember, Guinness, a rather quintessential stout, has an OG of around 1.038. As an English style, stouts are brewed in the 1.040-60 OG range all the time, with no lack of character or body. So I would say there is nothing inherently "mild" about the OP's recipe. I understand it's not a dry stout. 1.017 may be a bit low, but shouldn't be thin or watery.

Mashing high, check. Lactose, check. Chloride level is up there. Sodium is a tad high for what I would go for, but possibly okay.

I'm a little unsure about your grain bill, but then I haven't tasted it; it could be great. My current stout on tap (1.047-11, 4.8% ABV, 35 IBU) is as follows: 70% Maris Otter, 9% flaked Barley, 7% flaked oats, 7% roasted barley, 3% Carafa II, 4% crystal 80L. Water is similar to yours, but half the sodium and half the chloride. Mash pH about 5.48.

Now, stout always takes a while to condition. If you are tasting it right after fermentation, I would not judge that as the final character of the beer. Yeast settling, clarifying, proper temperature, and carbonation will work wonders. After all is said and done, is it possible that this might be the issue - premature judgment?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Thought 1: You might try a yeast that attenuates a bit less than S-04. It states about 75% but in the real world and right conditions, it's known to chew a bit harder.

Thought 2: You said you mashed at 158F. But, when you mashed in, how close were you to that. If you were low and it spent a lot of time, at say 150 or below, the beta enzymes might have chewed the hell out of your "body" before it got up to the 158F. Thus making for a more fermentable and "thinner feeling" final product. Keep in mind that most of the conversion takes place in the beginning (15 to 30 minutes) and the remainder of the mash is just slowly inching its way through the last few gravity points.

 

[jmcquesten]

I know some would disagree but to me a 60-something point recipe = a mild porter. And thus I will admit to a rather large bias on this, but imo if you want a big stout you're going to have to up the voltage - the OG - and let the FG follow. I brew IPAs that are at least ten points higher than your "stout" recipe and end only a couple/few points lower FG and they in no way have the body I like in a big stout.

The stout I always keep on tap (above anything else!) starts out at 1.106-107 and finishes around 1.028. Even non-beer drinkers love it...

Cheers!

Feel free to share this stout recipe with me. I'm due for a stout in the next few weeks, and am looking at something bigger than my (8% foreign Export/tropical) stout. Really like to get something like 10Fidy going.

 

[day_trippr]

Remember, Guinness, a rather quintessential stout, has an OG of around 1.038. [...]

Meh. I would call it "ubiquitous"...which may convey "quintessence" to some
It's almost a black lager to me.

But as I fully prefaced I like a big ass chewy stout, so...here's how I roll...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

Getting close to perfecting a robust porter/stout (no roasted barley or black so it’s a porter right????) that finishes at 1.030 and targets 7.5% ABV. It’s not sweet at all but has tons of body. The higher FG lets you add ever more roast character to balance without being acrid or to “roasty” and the increase in IBUs also helps in balancing the body.

A 6.5% Tree House milk stout finishes at 1.036. Trillium’s PM Dawn a 9% coffee stout finishes a 1.046. All the popular new stouts have huge FGs. Much higher than people think. If they’re over 10 or 11% they’re finishing north of 1.050. I think Dark Lord is 1.070 FG right?

 

[st1l3tto]

I'm a little unsure about your grain bill, but then I haven't tasted it; it could be great. My current stout on tap (1.047-11, 4.8% ABV, 35 IBU) is as follows: 70% Maris Otter, 9% flaked Barley, 7% flaked oats, 7% roasted barley, 3% Carafa II, 4% crystal 80L. Water is similar to yours, but half the sodium and half the chloride. Mash pH about 5.48.

Now, stout always takes a while to condition. If you are tasting it right after fermentation, I would not judge that as the final character of the beer. Yeast settling, clarifying, proper temperature, and carbonation will work wonders. After all is said and done, is it possible that this might be the issue - premature judgment?

Grain bill is fine, however my recent research asks for MUCH more oat malt (6%>15-20%) and even more caramel malts. As for conditioning, it has been 10 days after I kegged it, with all fermenting periods longer than usual (had to abandon brewery for a week).

Thought 1: You might try a yeast that attenuates a bit less than S-04. It states about 75% but in the real world and right conditions, it's known to chew a bit harder.

Thought 2: You said you mashed at 158F. But, when you mashed in, how close were you to that. If you were low and it spent a lot of time, at say 150 or below, the beta enzymes might have chewed the hell out of your "body" before it got up to the 158F. Thus making for a more fermentable and "thinner feeling" final product. Keep in mind that most of the conversion takes place in the beginning (15 to 30 minutes) and the remainder of the mash is just slowly inching its way through the last few gravity points.

1) Unfortunately, I have no access to variety of yeast at the moment. All Fermentis and some Danstars - all I can get :\ Maybe I should try and force stop fermentation with crashing immidiately after I hit 0.05 higher then FG?
2) Hmm, that's worth looking into. I mashed in at 169,3F, as Beersmith told me with "temp adjust for equip" un-checked. I have temp sensor installed at the bottom of the pot, and I also have Thermapen. However, I can't really reach the bottom of mash in the basket (too deep for Thermapen), and on top of mash it usually shows lower temp (~154F), while showing reqiured temp (169, then 158 when recirculation is on) on PID from the temp sensor. Could it be that my calculations are actually off and I get ALL mash inside the basket to be 154F?

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I like to mash warm (which you did, or tried to), use a decent amount of crystal and carapils for body, boil longer (like 2-3 hours) and ferment with Denny's favorite to get nice body in my stouts. I've never brewed one under 8% though. If I'm brewing a stout, I want a nice chewy 12+% beast.