Washing Yeast vs Pitching Trub?

[user 338926]

Title pretty much says it all, what's people's opinion on yeast washing vs just pitching trub?

I have washed yeast exactly one time, had the resulting beer not turn out due to contamination, and never tried it again. Since that time, and on the advice of another person in a brew club I belonged to years ago, started pitching trub that was saved. Have never had a failed batch due to contamination since (that being about 10 years ago), but now have considered washing yeast again.

I've been experimenting with light beers. Some may have heard how light beers are much more difficult to make? Well, it's true. I'ts not that they don't turn out, they do. But, when a beer has a delicate flavor, it doesn't take very much to alter it, if not outright ruin that beer. I recently tried a Scottish Ale, which turned out fine, but the beer isn't to my liking. It used a small amount of black patent which creates a background flavor I'm not thrilled with. So, while the yeast that was saved is beautiful, using it in another batch of some light beer seems risky. Even if I got 2% of that flavor in the new beer, I'm going to notice.

I bought 2 gallons of distilled water for this try vs boiling my own water like last time. I don't have a lab microscope, so looking to see if there's contamination in small amounts isn't on the cards. I'd like to try washing yeast again, and if I were to succeed this time, I'd have much better odds of pitching a correct amount of yeast since trub has an unknown yeast content. Now, I probably overpitch heavily, which is fine, but again, beer A affects beer B to a small degree. If washing would all but eliminate that, that's the aim.

Any thoughts out there?

 

[mac_1103]

Option three - make a starter from a scoop of your trub and some light DME. Or pitch a gallon of light DME onto your yeast cake. It might be a dumper, but it's only a gallon and it should mitigate the impact of beer A on beer B. I'm sure you already thought of this, but next time brew from light to dark.

 

[odie]

Consider filtering or screening your wort PRIOR to the fermenter.

The resulting "trub" at the end of fermentation will be very clean and not need washing.

here is what I use. A 5 gal bucket strainer. I think around 100-200 micron. Maybe tighter. It catched most all the hop debris and hot/cold break and other stuff. I get very clear and clean wort into the fermenter so my yeast cake is nice and clean.

 

[beersk]

Washing yeast is a colossal waste of time. Like Odie said, if you filter going into the fermenter, you'll have pretty clean yeast coming out. I mean, I wouldn't pitch yeast from a stout into a blond, an IPA into anything else, or from a schwarzbier into a helles. I guess if that is what you want to do, then, well, maybe washing yeast isn't a colossal waste of time lol

 

[user 338926]

Option three - make a starter from a scoop of your trub and some light DME. Or pitch a gallon of light DME onto your yeast cake. It might be a dumper, but it's only a gallon and it should mitigate the impact of beer A on beer B. I'm sure you already thought of this, but next time brew from light to dark.

I had considered not using dark colored yeast in a lighter colored beer, but figured washing it was the remedy if a guy wanted to.

I had not considered making a starter from the trub.

Consider filtering or screening your wort PRIOR to the fermenter.

The resulting "trub" at the end of fermentation will be very clean and not need washing.

here is what I use. A 5 gal bucket strainer. I think around 100-200 micron. Maybe tighter. It catched most all the hop debris and hot/cold break and other stuff. I get very clear and clean wort into the fermenter so my yeast cake is nice and clean.

I've had very little experience trying to filter wort, and none of it good. Hops (pellet) clogs things instantly in my experience. I keep the hops in bags, but even that doesn't really change at the filtering level. Also, how to you combat contamination when there's all this activity with cooled wort?

I've had a few yeast cakes look beautiful lately, and I just scooped em up and used them. But, this one in question, while really nice, was a brown ale, so it's got some color and roast malt flavor to it.

Washing yeast is a colossal waste of time. Like Odie said, if you filter going into the fermenter, you'll have pretty clean yeast coming out. I mean, I wouldn't pitch yeast from a stout into a blond, an IPA into anything else, or from a schwarzbier into a helles. I guess if that is what you want to do, then, well, maybe washing yeast isn't a colossal waste of time lol

On the topic of this filtering, I do have stainless mesh at work I could use to filter with. In various sizes. I probably could make a filter from a chunk of it, I'm just wondering does it need pressure to force it through the screen?

 

[odie]

time is your friend. As is gravity.

After I remove my IC, I cover the kettle and let is sit still 1-2 hours.

When I open the spigot, the first 4 gallons pours thru a bucket screen pretty fast.

The last gallon of crap in the kettle gets poured into the busket screen and will drip thru in about 30-60 minutes or so dependins on how much hops and other adjudents. Just like making coffee.

Dark to light yeast cake is not really that big a deal. Not ideal but you are going to decant all the beer on top of the yeast cake first. But if you have light yeast cake, by all means that is prefered if you are doing another light beer.

 

[user 338926]

May I ask where you got the bucket screen you're using? Did you buy it or make it?

 

[odie]

May I ask where you got the bucket screen you're using? Did you buy it or make it?

amazon or ebay. lots to choose from. I don't recall mine's micron rating but I suspect 100-200.

 

[mac_1103]

amazon or ebay. lots to choose from. I don't recall mine's micron rating but I suspect 100-200.

Yours look plastic. Is that right or just my eyes? I use this one, but wouldn't mid something a little bigger.

 

[user 338926]

amazon or ebay. lots to choose from. I don't recall mine's micron rating but I suspect 100-200.

Found them on walmart also. Same price as ebay. Not sure which size to use though, 100 vs 200 is a lot.

Yours look plastic. Is that right or just my eyes? I use this one, but wouldn't mid something a little bigger.

I have 304 stainless mesh in rolls, 4' wide typically. How big do you want it? How fine?

 

[odie]

Yours look plastic. Is that right or just my eyes? I use this one, but wouldn't mid something a little bigger.

That is not going to be very effective. It will catch the big stuff and whole hops but will allow much silt and such to pass. It is not designed for a standard 5 gal bucket.

I you use one specifically designed as a bucket insert, it will hold a lot more. It will not slip and fall inside. it will essentially close/seal off the bucket so that nothing gets into the clean wort below (like wild yeast and such) and you can place a bucket lid on top while it's dripping.

they are made for 5 gal buckets but the 6-7 gal fermenter buckets have the same diameter and lids. So it works just fine.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah, I probably have a roll of mesh somewhere too. I should probably just try lining a colander with it to see how it works. The one I have is pretty fine and hops do plug it up, but stirring solves the problem. I would like something a little deeper so that it will hold the last two or three quarts of wort while I stir it instead of having to pour it in a quart at a time.

 

[user 338926]

Ok, well, I've got it a LOT finer. I just looked here, I have 16 mesh, 20 mesh, 40 mesh, 80 mesh, and 200 mesh in stock. 200 mesh is 200x.0021" meaning 200 wires per inch and wire diameter of .0021. That's 40K Openings / sq in, and opening size of .0029. Pretty fine... That's 73 microns but in 304SS.

 

[odie]

Found them on walmart also. Same price as ebay. Not sure which size to use though, 100 vs 200 is a lot.

try 100. If it's too big drop to a 50 or even 25 micron.

It's it's too tight and just clogs up, go to a 200.

But remember, time is your friend. you must, MUST let the kettle settle to the bottom before you open the spigot. This will get about 4 gallons of pretty clear wort thru the screen pretty fast before it starts to clog up and slow down. Then just tip the kettle over and dump the remaining bottom dregs into the screen and let it percolate. Trust me, it will all pass thru and leave you a nice tight "mud cake".

You now have all your wort in the bucket and all the trub in the screen. And when fermentation is complete, you will have nothing but clean yeast cake.

 

[mac_1103]

I you use one specifically designed as a bucket insert, it will hold a lot more. It will not slip and fall inside. it will essentially close/seal off the bucket so that nothing gets into the clean wort below (like wild yeast and such) and you can place a bucket lid on top while it's dripping.

I get what you're saying, but I've never had a problem with it slipping. It hooks over the lip of the bucket and stays there.

How fine is your mesh?

 

[odie]

I would like something a little deeper so that it will hold the last two or three quarts of wort while I stir it instead of having to pour it in a quart at a time.

those bucket inserts will hold a gallon easy. That bottom gallon of the kettle is where all the crap is. dump it in at the end and walk away.

 

[mac_1103]

Is this what you're talking about?

 

[user 338926]

Is this what you're talking about?

Yes, it appears that's what he means. I was looking at $25 each, but that's a little better. Would be nice to know which to get before buying an entire set.

@odie Thanks for the tip. I'll be trying it either with what I have to at least figure out which size I want, or just buy the thing and give it a shot.

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

FYI, yeast washing is a common misnomer for a process that's merely "rinsing" yeast, which is apparently what you did. There's a significant difference between the two methods.

Yeast washing requires using an acid and very low temps, around 2-4°C, maintained throughout the process. A stir plate comes in handy too.
When done correctly it will kill most bacteria while on the other hand much of the (healthy) yeast survives.

 

[odie]

yes, that is them.

Like I said, I do not know what my micron rating is. I bought them long ago for filtering cooking oil into bio-diesel and long forgot what size they were.

I had some extras lying around and gave it a shot for beer. Worked great. Way better, faster and easier than anything else I've ever tried to filter wort.

 

[user 338926]

yes, that is them.

Like I said, I do not know what my micron rating is. I bought them long ago for filtering cooking oil into bio-diesel and long forgot what size they were.

I had some extras lying around and gave it a shot for beer. Worked great. Way better, faster and easier than anything else I've ever tried to filter wort.

Gotcha. Thanks!

FYI, yeast washing is a common misnomer for a process that's merely "rinsing" yeast, which is apparently what you did. There's a significant difference between the two methods.

Yeast washing requires using an acid and very low temps, around 2-4°C, maintained throughout the process. A stir plate comes in handy too.
When done correctly it will kill most bacteria while on the other hand much of the (healthy) yeast survives.

Ok, I've only ever heard them call it "washing" in videos. Point taken. Yes, what I was doing was rinsing then... More info to look into then...

 

[mac_1103]

Even better deal on two (assuming that 400 works).

 

[user 338926]

Even better deal on two (assuming that 400 works).

Maybe it'll work the same as lautering grain where the filtered out gunk actually does the filtering. They wouldn't have to catch every single thing as long as it caught most. If your colendar closed up so you had to stir it, I'd say the 400 Micron thing is plenty.

 

[user 338926]

I just ordered those to you linked. I looked at my filtering funnel, I have one of those with the 4-in disc that's removable inside. Looking at the mesh in that, it can't be any finer than 400 micron. And that thing when I try to filter work with it, absolutely doesn't let but a few drops go through and it's clogged. So I'm just going to try those 400 bucket filters and see what it does. If it really needs something finer, I'll fill it in with a piece of stainless steel mesh.

 

[whattabrau]

I think that "rinsing" yeast is pointless. I have fixed a yeast propagation by "washing" it, i.e. adding acid to drop the pH to a few hairs over 2; it prevented future generations from having a sour tinge.

 

[mashdar]

I just save bit of each starter in a sterilized 8oz canning jar. I figure this minimizes generations and cuts out 90% of contamination opportunity.

I'll pitch trub if it's fresh, but if it's a couple months old IMO a starter is best anyway.

 

[faithie999]

I just ordered those to you linked. I looked at my filtering funnel, I have one of those with the 4-in disc that's removable inside. Looking at the mesh in that, it can't be any finer than 400 micron. And that thing when I try to filter work with it, absolutely doesn't let but a few drops go through and it's clogged. So I'm just going to try those 400 bucket filters and see what it does. If it really needs something finer, I'll fill it in with a piece of stainless steel mesh.

Please let us know whether the 400 micron does the trick or if you decide something finer is required. I would really like to go this way rather than wasting 1/2-1 gallon of beer after fermentation.

 

[mashdar]

Please let us know whether the 400 micron does the trick or if you decide something finer is required. I would really like to go this way rather than wasting 1/2-1 gallon of beer after fermentation.

Are you doing big batches? I feel like my compacted trub must be less than a quart in a 5gal batch. It's down by the punt (? do we call it that in a carboy?), so hard to estimate. Do others get a lot more? If so, is it hops?

Back in the day, people would place the fermenter at an angle to leave a clear(er) area for a syphon.

 

[user 338926]

Are you doing big batches? I feel like my compacted trub must be less than a quart in a 5gal batch. It's down by the punt (? do we call it that in a carboy?), so hard to estimate. Do others get a lot more? If so, is it hops?

Back in the day, people would place the fermenter at an angle to leave a clear(er) area for a syphon.

I just moved a big mouth bubbler to a keg last night. I got 2 half pint jars and one pint of trub saved. There was a little more, let's call it 2/3 of a pint. So, not a half gallon. Then there was the beer on top of that which I was unwilling to try to siphon/rack to the keg. Even if I say 3 qts for a 5 gallon batch, that's a lot. And this was a batch that because I fermented in glass in less than 100% darkness, had large chunks of yeast/protein still. So I'd say 50% more beer lost than I would normally have, and I was still under 3 quarts (liters) of 'loss'. That batch had 0% effort to remove any solids from the kettle. 100% of the wort went into the 2 BMBs.

I've had the same beer lose probably not more than 16oz of beer because the yeast cake was so flat and solid. It could siphon perfectly without picking up a thing. Every batch done in my SS conical since I got back to brewing, has either gone down the drain or is still sitting in it.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Consider filtering or screening your wort PRIOR to the fermenter.

The resulting "trub" at the end of fermentation will be very clean and not need washing.

here is what I use. A 5 gal bucket strainer. I think around 100-200 micron. Maybe tighter. It catched most all the hop debris and hot/cold break and other stuff. I get very clear and clean wort into the fermenter so my yeast cake is nice and clean.

View attachment 819239

^^^^THIS^^^^

We always run the wort through a hop strainer bag out of the boil kettle. It collects all of that crap you no not want in your beer and yeast.

 

[user 338926]

Please let us know whether the 400 micron does the trick or if you decide something finer is required. I would really like to go this way rather than wasting 1/2-1 gallon of beer after fermentation.

I see people say Amazon is slow lately, not that I'd know as I rarely order there. But they certainly won't be here for this weekends brew, so next weekend. But then I have to help a friend who just got a brewing kit and wants to start brewing. So it might be the week following, unless I take it along to his house and do his brew. That scares me due to "experimenting" on his very first ever batch... I might not be a hero if his beer foams out of the keg and bottles! Lol.

(I'm supplying a mini keg and he's gong to bottle half of it to learn how both work)

 

[redrocker652002]

I am wondering if those bucket strainers will work on my NB bucket. I think it is a 6.5 gallon so it might be a bit wider. I was thinking of just getting a big strainer and holding it under the valve on my boil kettle and stopping the flow as I needed to empty the strainer. I don't usually wait very long once the wort hits pitching temp to move it to the bucket. Maybe I should wait a bit longer? My kettle has a bazooka screen that seems to catch a lot of the stuff, but I was thinking a strainer of some sort could be a nice addition. Either way, this is a good read. I am going to continue to watch this thread to see where it goes. Rock On!!!!!!!!!

 

[faithie999]

I am wondering if those bucket strainers will work on my NB bucket. I think it is a 6.5 gallon so it might be a bit wider. I was thinking of just getting a big strainer and holding it under the valve on my boil kettle and stopping the flow as I needed to empty the strainer. I don't usually wait very long once the wort hits pitching temp to move it to the bucket. Maybe I should wait a bit longer? My kettle has a bazooka screen that seems to catch a lot of the stuff, but I was thinking a strainer of some sort could be a nice addition. Either way, this is a good read. I am going to continue to watch this thread to see where it goes. Rock On!!!!!!!!!

in my experience, the 6, 6.5, and 7 gallon brew buckets all use the same lid as the 5 gal, hence the same diameter at the top. they are just taller.

 

[faithie999]

I just moved a big mouth bubbler to a keg last night. I got 2 half pint jars and one pint of trub saved. There was a little more, let's call it 2/3 of a pint. So, not a half gallon. Then there was the beer on top of that which I was unwilling to try to siphon/rack to the keg. Even if I say 3 qts for a 5 gallon batch, that's a lot. And this was a batch that because I fermented in glass in less than 100% darkness, had large chunks of yeast/protein still. So I'd say 50% more beer lost than I would normally have, and I was still under 3 quarts (liters) of 'loss'. That batch had 0% effort to remove any solids from the kettle. 100% of the wort went into the 2 BMBs.

I've had the same beer lose probably not more than 16oz of beer because the yeast cake was so flat and solid. It could siphon perfectly without picking up a thing. Every batch done in my SS conical since I got back to brewing, has either gone down the drain or is still sitting in it.

sorry, I was imprecise in my wording. what I should have said was "wort" not "beer". yes, the trub is nicely compacted in my fermenter, but I was referring to the slurry at the bottom of the kettle. I usually wait an hour or two after the last whirlpooling so as to let the trub settle, but still not very compacted. yes, I could increase my ingredients by 10% or so to account for the loss in the kettle but I'm cheap! (plus for some recipes I am maxed out in the mash tun)

 

[odie]

I could increase my ingredients by 10% or so to account for the loss in the kettle but I'm cheap! (plus for some recipes I am maxed out in the mash tun)

I'm actually cutting recipes by 10% or more and still beating the recipe OG numbers and getting a full 5 gallons of beer at the end.

a lot of that is cause by using the bucket strainer, all the wort gets to the fermenter and no trub.

A lot of recipes seem to be for 6ish gallons cause you are going to leave that last gallon in the bottom of the kettle with all the trub.

 

[Spivey24]

I don’t think yeast rinsing is even possible once everything is mixed up. You won’t magically separate the healthy yeast from the trub and dead yeast by any means most of us can do at home. I’ve been experimenting on yeast that I would otherwise throw out. I’ve had some results with taking the fermenter leftovers and throwing it in a starter, then decanting once the yeast are active and in suspension. Also if I am very careful, I can slide some of the top layer of yeast in the fermenter off the bottom layer of trub but this doesn’t work with all yeasts.

 

[mac_1103]

You won’t magically separate the healthy yeast from the trub and dead yeast by any means most of us can do at home.

True, but I think the only thing he wants to do is separate the yeast from the last beer he fermented with it so he doesn't carry over flavors to the next beer. the trub might still carry over some of those flavors, but presumably less than a half a gallon of the last beer would.

 

[Yesfan]

^^^^THIS^^^^

We always run the wort through a hop strainer bag out of the boil kettle. It collects all of that crap you no not want in your beer and yeast.

I have a few various sized bags, how big of a bag do you need for a 5 gallon batch? I know it will depend (pilsner vs neipa), but a roundabout figure?

I used to recirculate my wert through my hop spider when chilling. Truth be told, I doubt it was doing anything. The last batch I had some success whirlpooling to make a hop cone. It wasn't as tight as some of the ones I've seen posted here though.

Too bad there's not a floating diptube one could use in a boil kettle.....

 

[user 338926]

@faithie999 I don't put loose hops in my kettle. Only in bags. Unless one of those bags breaks open for some reason, I do not have enough solids in the kettle for me to care about. Literally 100% of what is in the kettle goes in the fermenter. I am going to try this filtering thing, but I know that I'll be trying to filter some seriously fine stuff. Not things that I think would bother me in the yeast cake, but I guess I will find out after my bucket filters arrive and I get to try them.

True, but I think the only thing he wants to do is separate the yeast from the last beer he fermented with it so he doesn't carry over flavors to the next beer. the trub might still carry over some of those flavors, but presumably less than a half a gallon of the last beer would.

That's pretty much the gist of it. And really the main reason I considered even trying it with the particular batch I have, was that if it works with this, I could do it with anything. If the whole process fails, I'm out the cost of half a gallon of distilled water.

The video I watched which they termed yeast washing, was as pointed out above actually rinsing. The process was to mix the trub with water and agitate it considerably. Then let the solids settle out over a few minutes. Then pour the rest of the water in a new container and let it stratify overnight. Now pour the water off the top and what you're left with is predominantly yeast. That was the premise anyway. If the entire idea is flawed, I'm happy to learn something new.

It's more or less similar to what tried years ago using water I boiled and then cooled again. Perhaps this is another process like racking to a secondary, which I have heard recommended since I was a kid , but would say I've done once or twice in my entire Brewing career. Maybe the first batch or two but never again. One of those processes that creates more problems than it solves. What is the old saying? A solution in search of a problem?

I did not get a shipping notification from Amazon yet.

 

[jerrylotto]

I strain my word through a sanitized 400 mesh bag after the boil and always get clean yeast from my fermentation.