Went to homebrew festival, horrible off-flavor everywhere!

[jimmypop13]

I went to a homebrew festival and contest this weekend in Seabrook, TX and every single beer my friends and I tasted had an off flavor. Some were stronger than others but it was still noticeable. I've looked through the list of off-flavors in my how to brew book but I cant tell if it matches any of them. My roommate and I have struggled with the same off flavor since we started brewing a few months ago too. We were hoping that going to this festival, we could ask other brewers about there technique and try to figure out what we are doing wrong but we tried probably 10 or more beers and they all had it. Its hard to describe but its a kind of almost sour taste that I feel in the back of my mouth and it just overwhelms all flavors of the beer, or at least keeps me from being able to enjoy them. It doesnt bother my roommate as much but i cant handle the slightest hint of it. We were thinking maybe it was fermentation temp so we just bought two freezers but those brews arent ready yet to try. Plus considering we tried some bocks and pilsners that had the off flavor, theyd have to have not controlled fermentation temps for the problem to stem from fermentation temps. Maybe it could be water or chlorine or something? I live about 75 miles away from the contest though so im not using the same water as them. All i know is every beer ive ever purchased didnt have this flavor, at all, not even a hint of it.
Is there some major difference in homebrewing vs commercial brewing tjats kept secret? Lol. I just need to know the answer to what is causing this! Its making me hate homebrew
Please tell me someone knows what Im talking about and can help
thanks
-Chris

 

[mattjmac]

If you're an extract brewer look up "extract twang". I had a bad off-taste to most of my brews until I switched to all-grain. My beer has been much better since making the switch. Not to say you can't make great beer using extract. Good luck.

 

[jmo88]

Could be anything. Maybe the festival was pouring out of dirty lines. Maybe all the beers were oxidized. Who knows. If there's one thing commercial brewers are doing differently than homebrewers, I'd have to say it's making sure their beer, post fermentation, has not been introduced to oxygen. Many folks that keg carefully purge everything with CO2. Most bottlers probably don't, or can't.

 

[arturo7]

Just think, you can come back next year and dominate the competition!

 

[jimmypop13]

Just think, you can come back next year and dominate the competition!

And I want to do that! But I have the same off flavor in my beer at the moment.

I looked up that extract twang and it doesnt sound like it. Everyone was saying extract twang is a sweet syrupy taste. This isnt sweet at all. It attacks your tongue very intensly making me want to vomit

 

[skeeordye11]

Maybe there's something wrong with the water in Texas.

 

[Yooper]

And I want to do that! But I have the same off flavor in my beer at the moment.

I looked up that extract twang and it doesnt sound like it. Everyone was saying extract twang is a sweet syrupy taste. This isnt sweet at all. It attacks your tongue very intensly making me want to vomit

Like plastic? Band-aids? Solvent? Rubber? Some of those flavors are due to yeast stress, including high fermentation temperatures or underpitching yeast. Sometimes you get a band-aid/plastic taste from using chlorinated water.

Believe me, there are some wonderful homebrews out there. But there are some bad ones, too. I call it the "ugly baby" syndrome. You know, when somebody thinks their baby is beautiful but it's really kinda ugly? Sometimes people are like that with their brews. When somebody says, "I don't use a yeast starter and I ferment my beers at 75 degrees and it tastes GREAT!", I often think it's that Ugly Baby syndrome again.

The good news is that off-flavors are easy to fix. There are lots of possibilities, from water chemistry to yeast health, but we can help you narrow it down and brew a beer without any off-flavors.

 

[jimmypop13]

Maybe there's something wrong with the water in Texas.

Im gonna try distilled water with my next partial mash.

Does anyone know what St. Arnold does with their water because their beers don't have this taste.

 

[Yooper]

Im gonna try distilled water with my next partial mash.

Does anyone know what St. Arnold does with their water because their beers don't have this taste.

I wouldn't recommend distilled water with a partial mash. That can make your pH too low, plus not have the necessary minerals (like calcium) that your mash needs.

If you don't know what's in your water, you could try bottled spring water. That should work pretty well.

 

[arturo7]

Distilled is not the answer. Try spring water.




EDIT: damn, I must type reeaallly slow

 

[Displaced MassHole]

Go with purified spring water instead of distilled water. Distilled water is devoid of minerals and you'd have to add to it.

On the other hand try to research the water profile of St. Arnold's. Use distilled water and then add the necessary salts/minerals to replicate it.

 

[arturo7]

"purified" can sometimes mean R/O which is just as bad as distilled.

 

[samc]

You can use distilled or RO, you just need to learn how to build up your water. It is pretty easy if you want to stick to a known profile. Check the brew science thread and ask questions if you need to. As Yooper suggest spring water might be ok, but then you are not entirely sure what you are using.

I'd say 95% of home brew I have tasted has been pretty bad, it's not just Texas... ugly babies everywhere!

 

[Ricand]

Mine was water chemistry. My wife was way more aware of it than I was. I did a bunch of batches and they all seemed to have it. Since I started using RO water and building it up with a few cheap salts, it's been gone ever since. Of course, it could just be MY ugly baby. Anyway at 39 cents a gallon it's well worth the price to have it go away. If you have public water, get a water report. I'll bet Texas has some hella Bicarbonates in the water.

 

[prosper]

we need to know a lot more about your process. The big key to good beer is simple: take care of your yeast! Watch your pitching and fermentation temperatures: leaving it in a room that's 'about' 68F doesn't cut it if the temperatures swing more than a couple degrees overnight - and if the room is 68F, the fermentation temperature is probably a few degrees warmer, and in the 'red zone.' And use big starters. Between proper yeast care, good sanitization, and using quality, fresh ingredients, you'll make good beer.

 

[jimmypop13]

Oh okay. Ill try spring water. I was under the impression that distilled was okay when using extract.

Some off flavors I can rule out are green apple, cidery, butter, cooked vegetable, fruity, grassy, grainy, band-aid, plastic, metallic, moldy, skunky, sweaty, yeasty.

That leaves alcoholic, astringent, oxidized, soapy, and solvent-like. Its a harsh taste that i feel right on the top of my tongue all the way back. It doesnt remind me of cheap vodka so I dont think its heavy alcohols. And im not sure what oxidation tastes like. The description says wet carboard or sherry like and Ive tasted neither.

 

[jimmypop13]

For my brewing process in the past, ive followed what Palmer says in his book How to Brew and formulated my recipes using his advice, examples from his book Brewing Classic Styles, and BrewSmith to get color, alc estimates, and hop ibu's.
I make a 4 liter starter first, then when its done fermenting, crash cool. I siphon off all the liquid the day i brew.
I use yeast nutrient in the starter and in the boil.
The daybefore I brew, I boil 2 gallons or so of water, then pour it in starsan'd containers and freeze it. I put that in the fermenter right before pouring in the hot wort. Then I stir it up to aerate and get the ice to melt. That normally gets it to pitching temps pretty quick, somewhere in the 60*s.
This is where Ive changed things. All my past brews fermented in my closet at 80*+. My future brews will ferment in the chest freezer I just bought. I hooked up a johnson digital controller to control temps.
once primary fermentation is done, I autosiphon to a secondary, making sure not to splash the beer around.
I try to minimize bubbling and splashing when bottling too
If you notice Im doing something stupid or need more specifics, let me know.
thanks!

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

It's probably high bicarbonates, high pH, or high chlorine/chloramine in the water.

I know the water up here in Fort Worth is high in bicarbonates and has a very high pH. It's acceptable in beers in the brown range (e.g. brown ales, porters) but anything lighter or darker requires modification. For anything darker I add salts and for anything lighter I use up to 95% distilled water so it creates very soft water. During summer the chlorine/chloramine levels can be quite high, in which case I have to dilute or try to boil it off.

It's very likely that people are using the public water supply and it's carrying over bitter bicarbonate, chlorine/chloramine or high pH flavors, which could happen regardless of whether it's extract or AG. If that is the case, the people that live there are accustomed to drinking that water and eating food prepped with that water, so they don't notice it at lower levels in their beer.

 

[jimmypop13]

It's probably high bicarbonates, high pH, or high chlorine/chloramine in the water.

I know the water up here in Fort Worth is high in bicarbonates and has a very high pH. It's acceptable in beers in the brown range (e.g. brown ales, porters) but anything lighter or darker requires modification. For anything darker I add salts and for anything lighter I use up to 95% distilled water so it creates very soft water. During summer the chlorine/chloramine levels can be quite high, in which case I have to dilute or try to boil it off.

It's very likely that people are using the public water supply and it's carrying over bitter bicarbonate, chlorine/chloramine or high pH flavors, which could happen regardless of whether it's extract or AG. If that is the case, the people that live there are accustomed to drinking that water and eating food prepped with that water, so they don't notice it at lower levels in their beer.

Thanks. If it was the water, woukd I taste it before fermenting or only after? Because Ive drank that water, and the water here, and they dont have that taste

 

[calebawilson]

I do believe saint arnolds uses reverse osmosis with the regular houston tap water then they add unfiltered back in for the minerals they lose in the fitering.

 

[Jarret]

I was at this same homebrew festival.

I completely agree with your statements regarding the beer. It was horrendous.
I tried about 10 different styles and ended up tossing about half of them as they were undrinkable. There was a cider that was nice. Only one corny keg and it went fast.

I ended up drinking the donated commercial beer on the other side of the room. I was very disappointed this year. This was my third year attending and by far this was the worst beer I have been served.

Jarret

 

[Yooper]

For my brewing process in the past, ive followed what Palmer says in his book How to Brew and formulated my recipes using his advice, examples from his book Brewing Classic Styles, and BrewSmith to get color, alc estimates, and hop ibu's.
I make a 4 liter starter first, then when its done fermenting, crash cool. I siphon off all the liquid the day i brew.
I use yeast nutrient in the starter and in the boil.
The daybefore I brew, I boil 2 gallons or so of water, then pour it in starsan'd containers and freeze it. I put that in the fermenter right before pouring in the hot wort. Then I stir it up to aerate and get the ice to melt. That normally gets it to pitching temps pretty quick, somewhere in the 60*s.
This is where Ive changed things. All my past brews fermented in my closet at 80*+. My future brews will ferment in the chest freezer I just bought. I hooked up a johnson digital controller to control temps.
once primary fermentation is done, I autosiphon to a secondary, making sure not to splash the beer around.
I try to minimize bubbling and splashing when bottling too
If you notice Im doing something stupid or need more specifics, let me know.
thanks!

Thanks. If it was the water, woukd I taste it before fermenting or only after? Because Ive drank that water, and the water here, and they dont have that taste

My water tastes GREAT for drinking. But it's way too high in bicarbonates to make good beer. Well, I can make a stout with my water, and that's it. So, good taste is important, but if your water company uses chloramines in it, you may not taste it in drinking water by the brew will taste of it. Call them and ask if they use chloramines- chlorine boils off but chloramines don't.

As far as process, I'd say that fermenting at 80 degrees plus is a real probable cause of off-flavors. At high temperatures, you can get some weird fruity flavors, and in the cause of nottingham yeast, it is positively foul at above 72 degrees.

 

[jimmypop13]

I was at this same homebrew festival.

I completely agree with your statements regarding the beer. It was horrendous.
I tried about 10 different styles and ended up tossing about half of them as they were undrinkable. There was a cider that was nice. Only one corny keg and it went fast.

I ended up drinking the donated commercial beer on the other side of the room. I was very disappointed this year. This was my third year attending and by far this was the worst beer I have been served.

Jarret

Okay good, it wasnt just us then! Any chance you know exactly whats causing that taste?

 

[caphector]

It's can be hard to say what the flavor is without some description or tasting. If you'd like, you could ship a bottle out to me and I'd be willing to evaluate it (serious offer, not just to get free beer) with a friend or two who are BJCP Judges.

 

[northernlad]

Knowing full well how wrong it is to say anything disparaging about the great state of Texas, I offer this: Your water is Shyt. Straight up, pure D, grade A undrinkable without considerable treatment.
I would start there.

 

[Zamial]

Knowing full well how wrong it is to say anything disparaging about the great state of Texas, I offer this: Your water is Shyt. Straight up, pure D, grade A undrinkable without considerable treatment.
I would start there.

+1 IMO

Just reading through this thread and I agree with the water. It seems pretty unlikely that most/all of the beers would have the same off taste. With different styles and brews the only common thing I can guess would be the water...

I had been using spring water (Ice Mountain 2.5 gallon containers) in my brews but that adds quite a bill to the end cost not to mention a problem with all the recycling (they only pick it up 1 time a month!!!)

I will be building water soon...

 

[ThickHead]

All my past brews fermented in my closet at 80*+.

I agree with Yooper. This is your biggest enemy given the rest of the information you have given. I cannot stress enough the importance that temperature control has on quality. Pitch rate can also be a very important factor but i have found that precision of fermentation temperature control has been the single most significant factor affecting the quality of my homebrew. Most yeast strains will have a fermentation temperature "sweet-spot." I suggest you pay close attention to that information and do your best to maintain your fermentation temps within that sweet-spot for the duration of fermentation.

Edit: Look into using spring water as well.

 

[jimmypop13]

It's can be hard to say what the flavor is without some description or tasting. If you'd like, you could ship a bottle out to me and I'd be willing to evaluate it (serious offer, not just to get free beer) with a friend or two who are BJCP Judges.

Cool man! Let me dig through my roommate's and my collection to see if i can find a really good example.

Luckily fermentation temps will no longer be a problem for me since I got the freezer.

I was flipping through the Palmer book some more and noticed I missed something before. He says not to aerate wort above 80*. Ive been splashing mine all around to get my ice blocks to melt. Sounds like I need to make a change here

 

[Homercidal]

Cool man! Let me dig through my roommate's and my collection to see if i can find a really good example.

Luckily fermentation temps will no longer be a problem for me since I got the freezer.

I was flipping through the Palmer book some more and noticed I missed something before. He says not to aerate wort above 80*. Ive been splashing mine all around to get my ice blocks to melt. Sounds like I need to make a change here

Yeah, he's talking about Hot Side Aeration. Lots of people have said lately that this is a potential problem, but the problem is so minute that it's not even worth worrying about. However, I would probably minimize the splashing as much as is convenient just to be safe.

And I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I'd guess your water is the main cause for the off-flavor...

 

[Zamial]

I was flipping through the Palmer book some more and noticed I missed something before. He says not to aerate wort above 80*. Ive been splashing mine all around to get my ice blocks to melt. Sounds like I need to make a change here

This is the dreaded "Boogie man" of brewing. Can this happen? I guess so; but it is rarer than a unicorn siting. There are even some people that contend this does not really exsist...like the unicorn...

I have been stove top brewing and "ice bath cooling" for the last 7 batches. I stir the wort and splash it around in the process and have not tasted "wet cardboard like" flavors in my beers which is what this will taste like...

 

[COLObrewer]

. . . . . . .This is where Ive changed things. All my past brews fermented in my closet at 80*+. My future brews will ferment in the chest freezer I just bought. I hooked up a johnson digital controller to control temps. . . . .

IMO, this will help you tremendously (Barring any bad water stuff), save the 80F+ for saison.

 

[MW66]

Unfortunately, there's a lot of bad homebrew out there. I used to go to tasting sessions and listen to people rave about their beer, but a lot of it had some sort of off flavor, most likely from contamination. I use spring water, but I will be changing to a filter system which will be cheaper in the long run. I just can't see spending that much of my time to do an all grain recipe with chlorinated tap water. I think if you keep your fermentation temperature below 75, you'll be fine. I just finished a keg that I fermented with WLP001 at 75 and it was super clean. Good sound techniques lends itself to good clean beer.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Not to be rude, but is craft beer new to you?

Could be that the off flavor you are experiencing and find in so many others is "flavor".

 

[IrregularPulse]

I had a similar taste in my brews and have noticed it in every bottle of beer I've received from from this forum in swaps that were bottle conditioned. The problem went away when I started kegging and I've also noticed it lacking in a fellow homebrewer friend's kegged beer. His botteled beer had it also. I honestly believe it has to do with sugar for carbonation at bottling time, but everyone around here says it's not. But I've not had their brews so I can't comment on whether they're truly not getting it, or they don't notice it, or they just note it as the "homebrew" flavor and move on. Despite my lack of scientific proof of how or why, I have enough experience to call it the culprit for myself.

 

[jimmypop13]

Not to be rude, but is craft beer new to you?

Could be that the off flavor you are experiencing and find in so many others is "flavor".

Trust me, I've considered this numerous times, but I have to believe if this is a flavor people enjoy, then everyone is crazy but me. I regularly drink beer from st. Arnold, dogfish head, rogue, shiner, and yes, coors None of them have the slightest hint of this flavor.

 

[ThickHead]

Good sound techniques lends itself to good clean beer.

Well stated.

 

[jimmypop13]

I had a similar taste in my brews and have noticed it in every bottle of beer I've received from from this forum in swaps that were bottle conditioned. The problem went away when I started kegging and I've also noticed it lacking in a fellow homebrewer friend's kegged beer. His botteled beer had it also. I honestly believe it has to do with sugar for carbonation at bottling time, but everyone around here says it's not. But I've not had their brews so I can't comment on whether they're truly not getting it, or they don't notice it, or they just note it as the "homebrew" flavor and move on. Despite my lack of scientific proof of how or why, I have enough experience to call it the culprit for myself.

I thought it could be bottle conditioning too...BUT...mine and my roommates brews are bottle conditioned, and all the beers at the festival were kegged, so this flavor isnt coming from that

 

[cfonnes]

Do you taste this in all types of home brew? Stout, porter, IPA, etc....

 

[jimmypop13]

Yup, all types ive tried. Bock, double bock, pilsner, ipa, double ipa, porter, stout, hefe, fruit...
Theres a bar in houston called the flying saucer that has like 200 beers. Ill go there occassionally and try the strangest beers and beers from breweries Ive never heard of. None of them have it.

 

[IrregularPulse]

send me a bottle and I'll see if it's the same thing I taste.
OR - take a bottle of homebrew and a bottle of commercial of the same style. Have roomate remove labels and label A and B with him noting which is which. See if you detect it then. A lot of this could be in your head.