Wood barrels, brett, and long-secondary for vintage IPA, RIS.

[Gadjobrinus]

Putting together two beers to be brought out next Christmas and the Christmas after that or the following year - a vintage IPA next year and an RIS2-4 years from now. I'm venturing into brett land for secondary on both, using B. clausseni as recommended by @Northern_Brewer here and many other places as well as other members and places, including here. I am , definitely seeking the background funk and nothing approaching a sour beer.

Both beers will be following the extreme IBUs as shown by Ron Pattinson in his books and on his blog. I'm experimenting with trusting the long aging will dull this extreme bittering to make for good, literally classic, brews (accepting I have no idea what a 19th century ale even tasted like). Using Beersmith, the IPA projects at OG 1.070 and 187.5 IBUs for BU:GU 2.68. The RIS comes in at projected 1.100 OG and 220.5 IBU for 2.21 BU:GU.

I could use some guidance on the use of wood. I am guided by @DBhomebrew on the fermentation regime here. I presume. "no," but is there any kind of issue leaving the beer on wood for months, even years? Any particular cleanup regime different from s/s, normal fermentation equipment? Finally, bit of a dumb question but an important one, do we continue to vent during the brett secondary (e.g., airlock), or do we seal up the wood barrel at some point and allow a long, slow, essentially cask or "vat" conditioning, before bottling months or year down the road?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Using Beersmith, the IPA projects at OG 1.070 and 187.5 IBUs for BU:GU 2.68. The RIS comes in at projected 1.100 OG and 220.5 IBU for 2.21 BU:GU.

Please explain. OG and IBU match the recipe, no?

You're using the s/s, PET, glass secondary vessel to replicate the traditional trade vat. [Micro-oxygenation happens naturally with the avg homebrewer's technique and airlock.] I rack to .25oz/gal oak [Hungarian cubes] plus whatever dry hops. I had mentioned in another thread that the brett eats some of the hop compounds. Also, the dry hops have some diastatic properties in addition to anti-septic. This helps drop FG and give the brett their dinner. This secondary lasts until the brett quits. My last stock ale (which historical IPA are) lasted 8mo in secondary. This one, likely Brett L, is still going at 10mo. When it does quit, I'll bottle it up for next winter.

As I type, I'm drinking a brett'd stock ale 2yrs from brew day. ~1095, 65IBU. Racked at 1mo & 1023, bottled at another 8mo & 1012. Not bitter at all, not a bit. I'd call it fairly sweet.

I use my standard cleaning protocol plus a few hours in the direct mid-day sun.

 

[huckdavidson]

What type of wood are you using?

i.e. Are you using american or french oak chips, chunks or cubes w/ a fermenter or are you using a new oak barrel, a barrel that's previously been used for whiskey, rum, beer, etc...?

Your last sentence says "wood barrel"...

Brett is not a souring organism and does not sour a beer, lacto and pedio do however.

You will need to use a vented bung or airlock until all CO2 production has stopped. Brett do produce ethanol and CO2.

IBU formulas (Tinseth, Rager, etc...) and calculations tend to be inaccurate and are used as estimates. Use the same ruler for everything...

There is a saturation limit to the amount of IBU's @ ~110.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I think @Erik the Anglophile might be using a barrel for some brett'd beers. At any rate, he's got as much experience on stock ales as do I.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Sorry guys, first of all, 3 hours sleep last night so I shouldn't be posting - brain is at half-mast.

I think I've spaced this before - using raw hop amounts v. working from IBUs backwards. Have adjusted the hop additions to come up with, for instance, the RIS's 132 IBUs for a much more reasonable 1.245 BU:GU.

Secondly, thanks @huckdavidson , know that pedio and lacto (as well as aceto- and other bacterias) will sour a beer, wasn't aware brett will not over time. My best impression of brett comes from the funk in some French farmhouse ciders my wife and I really love, which I've found in many beers I can't recall at the moment, but I get it.

And on the saturation limit, I do recall now this being mentioned. Might even have been you. Again I've simply spaced. Thanks. If anything I can't wait to see what the quality of the bitterness is with such a saturated beer, especially over time (e.g., try it when the beer is at relatively close FG, but pre-long aging over Brett, v. a finished, conditioned beer).

And @DBhomebrew , thanks as well. I actually planned to ferment in a "medium charred" barrel, which we sell where I work; and that the barrel would be used from that point on for all brett beers. Hence, my wondering if you clean and sanitize like any other equipment or, I guess, clean but indeed allow a sort of brett biofilm to remain on board over time.

Thanks again.

Edit: Oh, while here, on the fermentation regime. Would 68-70F through primary, followed by a slow cool down to cellar temp, 55F, then pitching the brett for it's long secondary be reasonable?

 

[bwible]

I don’t normally use a barrel. Our club has from time to time gotten used bourbon or rye barrels and we’ve done club brews.

The first use of a barrel has usually been something “cleaner” like an barleywine, old ale, RIS, or we did a barrel esb once. After the first use, we find they are not as clean. Even in a second use we get some off stuff. By the third or fourth beers its pedo or sour beers. I personally will not get in on a barrel brew anymore unless its a first use barrel.

Generally, we’ve done 4-6 months. We’ve never left a beer in for a year or more. I have read in some commercial beer descriptions where they say aged for a year in Willet bourbon barrels, etc. I don’t recall ever reading something that said aged 4 years.

What size is your barrel? There is a whole thing with barrel geometry and wood exposure related to barrel size and amount of beer. I’m pretty sure there is another thread here about that. Most commercials are probably doing 60 or 75 gallon barrels or maybe even larger. Our club always got a 15. If you’ve managed to get a 5 gallon barrel thats going to be different yet again.

I don’t have room anywhere to store a barrel, I couldn’t be bothered with barrel maint and I am not a fan of pedo or sours. I brew 3 gallons at a time so I wouldn’t even be able to fill a barrel without a whole lot of effort. So when I want to do something wood aged I just use oak cubes. I can soak them in whatever I want, control the exposure, they’re cheap to do one use and throw them away and there’s no heavy barrel to move around or try to maintain. The cubes provide more surface exposure than chips. They also sell staves and spirals but I’ve never needed to use those. The cubes have always been plenty for me.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think @Erik the Anglophile might be using a barrel for some brett'd beers. At any rate, he's got as much experience on stock ales as do I.

No barrel for me, I was pondering the idea before though, but for making my own rum.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don’t normally use a barrel. Our club has from time to time gotten used bourbon or rye barrels and we’ve done club brews.

The first use of a barrel has usually been something “cleaner” like an barleywine, old ale, RIS, or we did a barrel esb once. After the first use, we find they are not as clean. Even in a second use we get some off stuff. By the third or fourth beers its pedo or sour beers. I personally will not get in on a barrel brew anymore unless its a first use barrel.

Generally, we’ve done 4-6 months. We’ve never left a beer in for a year or more. I have read in some commercial beer descriptions where they say aged for a year in Willet bourbon barrels, etc. I don’t recall ever reading something that said aged 4 years.

What size is your barrel? There is a whole thing with barrel geometry and wood exposure related to barrel size and amount of beer. I’m pretty sure there is another thread here about that. Most commercials are probably doing 60 or 75 gallon barrels or maybe even larger. Our club always got a 15. If you’ve managed to get a 5 gallon barrel thats going to be different yet again.

I don’t have room anywhere to store a barrel, I couldn’t be bothered with barrel maint and I am not a fan of pedo or sours. I brew 3 gallons at a time so I wouldn’t even be able to fill a barrel without a whole lot of effort. So when I want to do something wood aged I just use oak cubes. I can soak them in whatever I want, control the exposure, they’re cheap to do one use and throw them away and there’s no heavy barrel to move around or try to maintain. The cubes provide more surface exposure than chips. They also sell staves and spirals but I’ve never needed to use those. The cubes have always been plenty for me.

Makes good sense, thanks. We sell as much winemaking as brewing material, and so we have a decent choice among oaks and formats.

 

[JAReeves]

I'm using 5G barrels, that have been waxed completely on all outside surfaces to minimize evaporation. I understand with larger barrels, this is not as much of an issue, but it is with 5G's. Every few months I top off the barrels, which also releases pressure. If the pressure gets really intense, they will leak, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. It means the wood is saturating, right?

#1-charred white oak (USA, Hungary?), no previous tenants.
-Batch 1, homemade port (Chilean Merlot+Everclear), stayed a year in barrel, almost too vanilla and caramel-y for my taste, but won a silver in the national competition after two years of aging.
-Batch 2, Australian red wine blend, half year, too much vanilla character, but good.
-Batch 3, blackberry cider, great mellow barrel character, only aged a couple months.
-Batch 4, blackberry muscat wine, amazing barrel character after 6 months.
-Batch 5, Chilean merlot, about 6 months in, ready to bottle.
-After this, I think I will pour a bottle of port back into it and roll it for a month or two before I put something else in it.

#2-bourbon barrel, no other previous tenants. Old and dry when I received it.
-Batch 1, RIS, pretty good, but not a lot of barrel character after 11 months.
-Batch 2, barleywine, doing ok, added Brett. it's slow moving, but it is definitely drying out the residual sugars.
-Will probably put another bottle of bourbon in to refresh after this batch. I think another barleywine or RIS for the next batch. The Brett will never leave.

#3-rum barrel, so old and dry I had to rebuild it.
-Batch 1, wild-fermented passionfruit cider, needed to be blended, something in the barrel is off?
-Batch 2, wild-fermented guava cider, still characterless unfortunately, so definitely the barrel.
-Will put in some dark spiced rum and roll it around to change the character, then maybe add a wheat wine or something for batch 3. I'm going to continue to inoculate with house sour (from our grapes) bugs so they eventually dominate.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: I probably should mention that I rinse with One Step in between batches on all of the barrels, just to wash everything out with a sterile solution. It's not a heavy fill or anything, just enough to do a decent rinse of the stuff that falls out of solution.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'm using 5G barrels, that have been waxed completely on all outside surfaces to minimize evaporation. I understand with larger barrels, this is not as much of an issue, but it is with 5G's. Every few months I top off the barrels, which also releases pressure. If the pressure gets really intense, they will leak, I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. It means the wood is saturating, right?

#1-charred white oak (USA, Hungary?), no previous tenants.
-Batch 1, homemade port (Chilean Merlot+Everclear), stayed a year in barrel, almost too vanilla and caramel-y for my taste, but won a silver in the national competition after two years of aging.
-Batch 2, Australian red wine blend, half year, too much vanilla character, but good.
-Batch 3, blackberry cider, great mellow barrel character, only aged a couple months.
-Batch 4, blackberry muscat wine, amazing barrel character after 6 months.
-Batch 5, Chilean merlot, about 6 months in, ready to bottle.
-After this, I think I will pour a bottle of port back into it and roll it for a month or two before I put something else in it.

#2-bourbon barrel, no other previous tenants. Old and dry when I received it.
-Batch 1, RIS, pretty good, but not a lot of barrel character after 11 months.
-Batch 2, barleywine, doing ok, added Brett. it's slow moving, but it is definitely drying out the residual sugars.
-Will probably put another bottle of bourbon in to refresh after this batch. I think another barleywine or RIS for the next batch. The Brett will never leave.

#3-rum barrel, so old and dry I had to rebuild it.
-Batch 1, wild-fermented passionfruit cider, needed to be blended, something in the barrel is off?
-Batch 2, wild-fermented guava cider, still characterless unfortunately, so definitely the barrel.
-Will put in some dark spiced rum and roll it around to change the character, then maybe add a wheat wine or something for batch 3. I'm going to continue to inoculate with house sour (from our grapes) bugs so they eventually dominate.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: I probably should mention that I rinse with One Step in between batches on all of the barrels, just to wash everything out with a sterile solution. It's not a heavy fill or anything, just enough to do a decent rinse of the stuff that falls out of solution.

Sorry I missed this. Phenomenal post, many thanks!