Create Pilsner water profile from Distilled water?

[cshulha]

Hello everyone I am using Reverse Osmosis water for mashing. I want to make pilsner water profile. I figure since I am starting with a blank slate I will use 1gram of gypsum to harden the water slightly. I am making a 23 liter batch 16.46 liter mash and sparge 15.38 liters. Should this be ok? Also should i use 5star 5.2 stabilizer for PH?

 

[BigEd]

Pilsen water is practically distilled. It is extremely low in mineral ions. This deficiency was overcome originally by using multi-step decoction mashes to lower the pH and to successfully extract a high percentage of sugars from under-modified malts. I'd suggest using a small amount of Calcium chloride rather than gypsum as sulphate should be very low in this beer IMO. 3 or 4 grams per five gallon should be enough.

 

[schematix]

I use about 0.7 grams per gallon of calcium chloride and that's it. For no sparge this will give about 50 ppm Ca. If sparging you can treat the sparge water the same way or add directly to the BK.

Don't use 5.2... that stuff is trash. What you really need to do is use about 2-4% acid malt by weight. Alternatively you could do biological acidification or straight lactic acid. What the rest of your grain bill?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I recall reading somewhere that the brewery which is famous for Pilsner Urquell actually uses its own artesian well water and not the cities water supply, so who knows if it is actually as soft as is typically stated.

That said, I would agree with adding only 3.5 grams of CaCl2 (as the dihydrate) to each 5 gallons of strike water for the Bavarian Pilsner style. And the same to the sparge water. This is 0.7 grams per gallon, and matches with the advice of the poster above.

 

[jodell]

It really depends on if you mean a czech pils or a german pils...
czech pils is very soft water and I agree with everything said so far.
If you are looking at making a german pils then you'll need more minerals as it calls for harder water.

 

[Yooper]

Sulfate and noble hops don't tend to play well together, so I'd go with the others and suggest some calcium chloride (not much) to distilled water for a great pilsner. I wouldn't use gypsum.

You will want to ensure a good mash pH, so throw out the "stabilizer" which doesn't reduce your mash pH properly anyway, and consider using 1% or so of acidulated malt.

 

[GoeHaarden]

All of this that has been mentioned...

Just transferred a BoPils for lagering yesterday, and I stayed pretty close to all the advise already given. Used distilled water. Used lactic acid (stay away from baking soda or chalk) to help with acidity and lowering pH. Forget about sulfate:chloride ratio here (mine was actually 1:10); just keep sulfate low (therefore don't use gypsum).

The sample was pretty good. It's definitely heading in the right direction.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You will want to ensure a good mash pH, so throw out the "stabilizer" which doesn't reduce your mash pH properly anyway, and consider using 1% or so of acidulated malt.

Good advice! If starting with distilled or RO, and adding CaCl2 in the low quantity outlined above, I would make the acidulated malt 3% of the grist bill to reduce the mash pH. For example, if your Pilsner malt bill is 4.5 Kg., you will add 135 grams of Weyermann's acidulated malt to this. Or alternately you can add 3.75 mL of 88% lactic acid to the strike water (only) to achieve the lactic acid equivalent of 135 grams of acidulated malt.

 

[schematix]

1% acid malt is not enough in a pils. Most pils base malt has a DI pH of about 5.7-5.9. Acid malt drops the pH roughly 0.1ph units for each 1%.

You want to be about 5.4. Better to be a touch low than a touch high.

So 3-5% is appropriate. I'd split the diff with 4% without knowing the exact grain pH.

Another helpful thing flavor wise is to add a little carahell. So like 90/6/4 pils/carahell/acid. Aim for 1.048-1.050.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

1% acid malt is not enough in a pils. Most pils base malt has a DI pH of about 5.7-5.9. Acid malt drops the pH roughly 0.1ph units for each 1%.

You want to be about 5.4. Better to be a touch low than a touch high.

So 3-5% is appropriate. I'd split the diff with 4% without knowing the exact grain pH.

Another helpful thing flavor wise is to add a little carahell. So like 90/6/4 pils/carahell/acid. Aim for 1.048-1.050.

The above would be true sans that most people generally do not mash in DI or even nigh-on distilled water, and given that calcium and/or magnesium mineralization acts as an acid in the presence of the grist. When Weyermann made this observation they did so in DI water which is devoid of minerals. I therefore stand by 3% as a better answer, allowing for some pH reduction via the CaCl2 addition and the rest via the acidulated malt addition.

 

[cshulha]

Thanks everyone this is a german pilsner. I guess i will add .7g of calcium cloride per gallon. Do i add .7g of calcium cloride per gallon to each the strike water and sparge water? Also how much lactic acid should i use in the strie water? Should i use lactic acid in the sparge water?

 

[schematix]

I therefore stand by 3% as a better answer, allowing for some pH reduction via the CaCl2 addition and the rest via the acidulated malt addition.

That's probably fine too. The best answer really depends on the malt he's got. If it's got a DI pH of 5.9 (as lot of pilsner malt i've had recently has been), then the 4% is probably better. But if its 5.75 then 3% is probably better. We're splitting hairs here though. Very little difference between proper RO water and DI water.

1% = no
2% = no
3% = yes
4% = yes
5% =ok but pushing it
6%+ = no

 

[schematix]

Thanks everyone this is a german pilsner. I guess i will add .7g of calcium cloride per gallon. Do i add .7g of calcium cloride per gallon to each the strike water and sparge water? Also how much lactic acid should i use in the strie water? Should i use lactic acid in the sparge water?

You can add the 0.7g/G to both. Or save the sparge addition for the BK. Personally i do it to the BK, but it reallly doesn't matter.

The pH is most important for the mash. Don't add lactic to the sparge if using RO water.

If you have acid malt i'd use that before lactic acid.

 

[chef1978]

I brewed few weeks a go Vienna lager,using 100% Vienna malt,and find water recipe from braukaiser web.this guy is solid.on 40 l I added 4 he gypsum,3.6g epsom salts and 5.2 g calcium chloride.beer turned out amazing,very malty,also don't forget if you brew 5 gal, u you need to calculate your salt additions for 10 gal,the sparge water too.cheers.

 

[schematix]

I brewed few weeks a go Vienna lager,using 100% Vienna malt,and find water recipe from braukaiser web.this guy is solid.on 40 l I added 4 he gypsum,3.6g epsom salts and 5.2 g calcium chloride.beer turned out amazing,very malty,also don't forget if you brew 5 gal, u you need to calculate your salt additions for 10 gal,the sparge water too.cheers.

OP isn't making a Vienna lager.

 

[BigEd]

Thanks everyone this is a german pilsner.

It would have been much simpler if you had stated that upfront. You asked about Pilsen water. Pilsen is Czech so I think pretty much everyone, me especially, assumed you were making a Czech pils. As was mentioned earlier in the thread a German pils, as opposed to a Czech version, will often be made with higher mineral content water, usually with some sulphate content.

You can keep your small gypsum addition and then add the CaCl2. I'd still suggest more chloride than sulphate but a little SO4 hop edge is not inappropriate in a German pils.

 

[cshulha]

It would have been much simpler if you had stated that upfront. You asked about Pilsen water. Pilsen is Czech so I think pretty much everyone, me especially, assumed you were making a Czech pils. As was mentioned earlier in the thread a German pils, as opposed to a Czech version, will often be made with higher mineral content water, usually with some sulphate content.

You can keep your small gypsum addition and then add the CaCl2. I'd still suggest more chloride than sulphate but a little SO4 hop edge is not inappropriate in a German pils.

Well yea im using wyeast pilsen lager and saaz hops (hallateau was not available). So for a german pilsner how much should i add in grams per gallon of both calcium cloride and gypsum? Also on another note i have some challanger hops lying around from my last brew. Can i use them for bittering and use more saaz hops for more flavour and aroma?

 

[schematix]

There are different types of German lagers. There are ultra soft varieties, and also fairly mineralized ones. Pick one and go with it. One is not necessarily better than the other.

Your hop options aren't great. Saaz is very low alpha so isn't useful for bittering. I would use the challenger before saaz for bittering though.

How are you planning to mash?

Don't lose focus on the mash pH. This style of beer has the potential to move you into a sub-optimal range if you ignore it.

 

[BigEd]

Challenger is a really good British hop and I like it very much but I don't think it's the best choice for a German lager. If you don't have a choice I'd try mixing the Challenger with Saaz, if you have enough to go around, for your bittering addition and then the Saaz alone for the late addition(s). However, if you have plenty of Saaz why don't you make a Czech style rather than German. BTW the Wyeast Pilsen is characterized as an American strain. It's A-B yeast.

 

[cshulha]

Thanks everyone with your help. With all of your information i played withthe ez water calculator and found exactly what i wanted. I am using something close to the Jervers water profile.