Water volumes, sparging, low efficency -HELP

[ratinator]

I've done 2 all grain batches so far and I missed my OG on both batches by quite a bit. I'm using a 10 gallon mash tun and a 36 qt boil pot. Now I've been very accurate on my steps and temperatures. My mash tun was bought built from an online brew store, has a false bottom and is very good and has no problems with stuck spares even doing a wheat beer.

I believe my problem is that I'm adding too much sparge water and diluting my wort. I'm beginning to push the blame on beersmith because I've been following their steps and they are always telling me to get close to 8 gallons in my brew pot. When I first added my equipment I put in the basic numbers from the video, like 72% efficency, certain boil off rates, etc. I am fly sparging and I enjoy this method and have watched many videos on it. I usually take about 40-45 mins to sparge.

What I want is 5 gallon bottling/kegging volume so I always shoot for a 6 gallon batch into the fermenter. What I want to do is get about 7 gallons of pre boil I'm assuming, but I can't seem to crunch the numbers in my head for example:

Say I do a 10 lb batch of grains:
10 × 1.5 = 15 qt of infusion water = 13 qt of sparge water

Now of I do a heavy ipa at say 16 lbs of grains:
16 × 1.5 = 24 qt of infusion water = 4 qt of sparge water?

Do I really only sparge 1 gallon of water in the second case?

My brain hurts, and it I go to 90 min boil I need to add more water for evaporation but won't adding more water dilute the beer? I don't care if I get a little more or less or beer but I want my beer to be the adequate % and flavor. I did a blue moon clone and the zombie dust clone from the recipe database section.

 

[Rockn_M]

If you’re doing all grain the first place to look at is your grain crush. That will solve most efficiency issues.

As for adding more water for a 90 min boil that would dilute the sugar to water ratio in the beginning but as the boil progress' the water level will drop and the sugar ratio will be ok.

 

[homebrew57]

Sounds like you are not factoring in grain absorption. In your 10 lb case you use 15 qt of strike water. That is not what you will get out of that. Usually I only get about 2 gallons of wort from a 10-12lb grain bill from my first runnings. I forgot the rule of thumb for grain absorption so forgive me for that. You should be fly sparging until you reach your desired 7 gallons. That might solve some of your issues.

 

[GotPushrods]

I'm beginning to push the blame on beersmith because I've been following their steps and they are always telling me to get close to 8 gallons in my brew pot. When I first added my equipment I put in the basic numbers from the video, like 72% efficency, certain boil off rates, etc. I am fly sparging and I enjoy this method and have watched many videos on it. I usually take about 40-45 mins to sparge.

BeerSmith works great, but any formula is only as good as the inputs you give it. Sample inputs may be a good average for other brewers, but you still need to know YOUR system if you expect accurate numbers to come out. 2 brews is not a lot of data, but you can start to learn your equipment.

Fly sparging, especially for a beginner, can cause problems as well. Is there any other reason you're not batch sparging? I've been brewing for 10 years, I've tried it all, and I'm a batch sparger. 80% eff with a single sparge and no headaches. We are starting to learn that you really only need to fly sparge if your equipment is somehow best suited for it. As far as beer quality and efficiency, there is just no need to fly sparge on a homebrew scale unless you just find it fun.


So just some back-of-a-napkin math....

If you want 6 gallons in the fermenter, you need to work backwards.

Say you lose 1 quart to kettle loss, 1 quart to cooling shrinkage (4% boiling to chilled) means you need 6.5 gallons post-boil but pre-chill. To get a respectable boil, you going to boil off at least a gallon, so you're looking at 7.5 gallons pre-boil in the kettle, boiling down to 6.5, chilling to 6.25, leaving that last .25 in the bottom with 6 in the fermenter.

The other big losses are mash-tun loss, and grain absorption. The grain will soak up about .12 gallons / pound, and your mashtun loss will vary based on the design. Fill it with cool water, drain it completely, then tip it over and measure what comes out. These all need to be in BeerSmith.

 

[GotPushrods]

If you’re doing all grain the first place to look at is your grain crush. That will solve most efficiency issues.

+1. As I say, there is 1. Crush and 2. Everything else

'Everything else' combined might start to approach the importance of the crush in terms of efficiency.

 

[MindenMan]

Referring to grain crush, does the bottom of the grain bag have a tiny bit of "dust", or, a noticeable amount of dust? I have two LHBS's, and their crush efficiency is very different. From one store, my efficiencies suck. What I mean is, I have to sparge to the 1.015 "limit" to get my desired S.G. (7.5 plus gallons), and the other store's grain must be crushed very differently, because I do not need to keep on sparging. What I mean is, I hit the 7.5 gallon mark, and my O.G. is right on. At that point, I can throw a gallon of water into my sparge tun, recirculate it, and pull a gallon of 1.030 wort that I save for making starters.

 

[CervezaMaLa]

Probably a dumb question, but putting it out there...

Are you using post-boil gravity in determining your efficiency?

I'm assuming you are, but your question about a 90 minute boil and adding more water makes me wonder if you're using pre-boil gravity, thus giving you much lower efficiency...or perceived efficiency

 

[ratinator]

I read about absorption but wasn't sure what the ratio was. I grind my grains threw the lbhs grinder which leaves some powdered dust on the bottom of the bag. Does the 1.5 qt per pound not factor in abortion? So basically I don't gotta worry about how much I'm sparging with just keep sparging till I hit my boil volume. Fly spare I read was easier and faster. I take my pre boil gravity which has been around 1.010 and 1.020. After the boil it does raise a bit by like like .010 but I'm shooting for like 6% abv. I know I'm using average beersmith numbers but I have nothing to go off of and I'm tired of wasting money on beer that won't get me drunk

 

[ratinator]

Why would I leave the last .25 in the kettle? I use hop socks so everything in the kettle is good. I usually dump the whole kettle into the fermenter once it hits temperature for the yeast. Remember I want 5 gallons to keg/bottle

 

[CervezaMaLa]

I take my pre boil gravity which has been around 1.010 and 1.020. After the boil it does raise a bit by like like .010 but I'm shooting for like 6% abv.

Can you provide recipe details? 1.010 to 1.020, even for preboil gravity is really low. How much grain are you using?

 

[ratinator]

Can you provide recipe details? 1.010 to 1.020, even for preboil gravity is really low. How much grain are you using?

I did a blue moon clone based off of Waynes suggestions from the blue moon clone page and I did the zombie dust clone from the ipa recipe section. None of the beers I've done have been my own creations

If I get to my preboiled volume and my OG is low how can I raise it? I add some lme to my wheat beer to help raise the OG but I'm not mashing to have to add partial mash ingredients

 

[CervezaMaLa]

I think that having more details would be helpful for people to give you pointers. There has to be something major to cause you to mash 16 pounds of grain and only get '1.010 and 1.020'. If you give a recipe and explain your methods, folks could help out more.

I am a new AG brewer (7 batches) and I batch sparge. I use a similar setup (10 gallon mash tun, 40 QT boil kettle). My last IPA was less than 12 lbs of grain, and my first runnings (mashing in with 16 qts) was 11.5 qts at 1.076. Two split batch sparges of around 12 qts got me to over 8 gallons of 1.046 (pre-boil). I boiled for a long time to get it down to volume (5.5 gallons at 1.058). Details like that would be helpful.

My quick calculations (IBM2) should that I can mash 5 lbs of grain at a low 50% efficiency, and still get 5.5 gallons at about the OG you seem to be getting (1.010 and 1.020), so there needs to be more to it.

Recommend giving the amount of grains, how it was crushed, temp and time it was mashed and with how much water, and same info for sparge. Also the gravity for your first runnings, preboil volume and gravity, and final volume and gravity.

Yes, you can raise gravity by boiling it down to what you want, or by adding DME/LME, but I think there is some other major issue if you're really getting numbers that low.

 

[ratinator]

I think that having more details would be helpful for people to give you pointers. There has to be something major to cause you to mash 16 pounds of grain and only get '1.010 and 1.020'. If you give a recipe and explain your methods, folks could help out more.

I am a new AG brewer (7 batches) and I batch sparge. I use a similar setup (10 gallon mash tun, 40 QT boil kettle). My last IPA was less than 12 lbs of grain, and my first runnings (mashing in with 16 qts) was 11.5 qts at 1.076. Two split batch sparges of around 12 qts got me to over 8 gallons of 1.046 (pre-boil). I boiled for a long time to get it down to volume (5.5 gallons at 1.058). Details like that would be helpful.

My quick calculations (IBM2) should that I can mash 5 lbs of grain at a low 50% efficiency, and still get 5.5 gallons at about the OG you seem to be getting (1.010 and 1.020), so there needs to be more to it.

Recommend giving the amount of grains, how it was crushed, temp and time it was mashed and with how much water, and same info for sparge. Also the gravity for your first runnings, preboil volume and gravity, and final volume and gravity.

Yes, you can raise gravity by boiling it down to what you want, or by adding DME/LME, but I think there is some other major issue if you're really getting numbers that low.

Ok here goes my brew day:
Batch Size: 6 gallons
Estimated Original Gravity: 1.065
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.018
Estimated Color: 8.5 SRM
Bitterness: 65.9 IBU
Mash Temp: 152 F

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.75 lb 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.7 %
1.13 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.8 %
0.50 lb Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3.5 %

0.75 oz Citra [12.40%] (60 min) Hops 17.0 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (15 min) Hops 21.1 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (10 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (5 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.25 oz Citra [12.40%] (1 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [12.40%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops
SafAle English Ale (S-04)

1. First went to LBHS and bought all the grains, weighed them on a scale, through them in one single bucket and then stuck them through their grinder myself. I put my hand in the grains and they all seemed to be falling apart and left white dust all over my hands and shirt. A week later I went to use the grains, there was a bunch of dust/shake at the bottom.
2. I boiled to 18qt of water tried to get to 163.7F but it was hotter at around 175F, so I put that water into my mash tun and gave it some time to cool off. Once the temperature was down to 163.7Fish, I added my grains
3. I gave my grains a nice stir and make sure everything was properly blended and waited a few minutes and checked to see if I hit my 152F mash temp. I was pretty darn close, I sealed up the lid and waited 20 mins.
4. I checked the grains every 20mins and added a bit of hot water to raise the temp (2qts totals over the hour, which I subtracted from my sparge water)
5. I recirculated a few quarts until the wort ran clear of particles and put that back into the top of my mash. I then began opening the valve on my mash tun at a slow rate (took about 45mins to do it all). Time to fly sparge!
6. According to beersmith I needed 5.50gal (5gal with the minus) of sparge water at 168F. So i began adding 168F water measuring it and keep the mash water an inch or two above the grain bed. I added all the water it called for an noticed my brew pot(36qt) was getting closer to the top, so I stopped the sparge early to get my 7.75g pre boil volume.
7. I checked the SG of my brewpot and got about 1.025 (beersmith said it should be 1.054). Was pretty mad at this point because I thought everything I did was flawless and felt good. I threw the sucker on the stove and boiled away at the hops as per schedule using hop socks.
8. After the boil, i checked the OG and it was 1.035 and then threw the pot inside a cool bucket of water outside (its cold out) and it took a couple hours to cool off (i dont have a wort chiller) and then pitched my S-04 and dry hops once the temperature was right.
9. I have not checked any readings as of yet and it's been 6 days (tomorrow I remove the dry hops). I'm not gonna lie after I missed my SG by so much I said eff it and knew my beer wasnt gonna be the ABV I wanted and didn't wanna spend more money on adding LME a second time so I havn't check anymore SG. I'm gonna do 10 days in primary, 10 in secondary and then bottle it and leave that for 2 weeks

I dont know if its just me, but my floating therometer takes forever to move up and down, so i'm going to buy a digital one before my next brew and I just don't have trust my SG reader which is a floating one as well as I have never seen it go high. I got both in a wine/beer starter kit from my LHBS. I didn't take a first run off SG, I didn't know that was important

 

[CervezaMaLa]

First run reading isn't really important. I just keep notes on stupid stuff.

I remember reading on here about someone having unmalted barley by mistake and getting super low gravity.

My other guess is the crush, but your gravity is so low that there has to be something to it.

Maybe your hydrometer is messed up. Have you checked it with water? I like to use a $25 refractometer for pre fermented gravity readings so I can continue to check my running so to see if I'm still getting sugars out.

As I stated before, I'm fairly new at this...your procedures look fine. Guessing the crush or the hydrometer.

Hopefully some experts will chime in. Definitely sounds frustrating. Maybe give batch sparging a try.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[ajf]

1. First went to LBHS and bought all the grains, weighed them on a scale, through them in one single bucket and then stuck them through their grinder myself. I put my hand in the grains and they all seemed to be falling apart and left white dust all over my hands and shirt. A week later I went to use the grains, there was a bunch of dust/shake at the bottom.
Sounds good.
2. I boiled to 18qt of water tried to get to 163.7F but it was hotter at around 175F, so I put that water into my mash tun and gave it some time to cool off. Once the temperature was down to 163.7Fish, I added my grains
So you've changed the mash thickness from 1.5 qt / lb (mentioned in your first post) to 1.25 qt / lb. No problem with this change.
3. I gave my grains a nice stir and make sure everything was properly blended and waited a few minutes and checked to see if I hit my 152F mash temp. I was pretty darn close, I sealed up the lid and waited 20 mins.
Sounds good.
4. I checked the grains every 20mins and added a bit of hot water to raise the temp (2qts totals over the hour, which I subtracted from my sparge water)
I would not open the MLT every 20 minutes to check the temperature. This allows heat to escape. I find it better to leave the sparge alone for the full hour, during which the temp drops by about 1 degree.
5. I recirculated a few quarts until the wort ran clear of particles and put that back into the top of my mash. I then began opening the valve on my mash tun at a slow rate (took about 45mins to do it all). Time to fly sparge!
At the end of the mash, I would give it a good stir before recirculating. This helps knock the sugars out of the grain into the wort, and improved my efficiency by about 10%.
6. According to beersmith I needed 5.50gal (5gal with the minus) of sparge water at 168F. So i began adding 168F water measuring it and keep the mash water an inch or two above the grain bed. I added all the water it called for an noticed my brew pot(36qt) was getting closer to the top, so I stopped the sparge early to get my 7.75g pre boil volume.
So you added 18 qt strike water plus 2 qt for temperature adjustment, and 5 gals sparge water. Accounting for grain absorption (0.12 gal per lb grain), and assuming 1/2 gallon dead space in the MLT, this should give you 31 qts, or 7.75 gals. If you had to stop the sparge early, then something doesn't quite add up.
7. I checked the SG of my brewpot and got about 1.025 (beersmith said it should be 1.054). Was pretty mad at this point because I thought everything I did was flawless and felt good. I threw the sucker on the stove and boiled away at the hops as per schedule using hop socks.
When checking the gravity after the sparge, you need to stir the wort thoroughly, as the early (dense) runnings will be at the bottom of the kettle, and the later (less dense) runnings will be at the top. Also, you need to cool the sample before checking the gravity to get it less than 100F and then apply a temperature correction.
8. After the boil, i checked the OG and it was 1.035 and then threw the pot inside a cool bucket of water outside (its cold out) and it took a couple hours to cool off (i dont have a wort chiller) and then pitched my S-04 and dry hops once the temperature was right.
Again, you need to cool the wort before checking the OG. According to Promash, a gravity reading of 1.035 taken at 200F translates to a true OG of 1.071. Also you don't want to add the dry hops until fermentation has finished.
9. I have not checked any readings as of yet and it's been 6 days (tomorrow I remove the dry hops). I'm not gonna lie after I missed my SG by so much I said eff it and knew my beer wasnt gonna be the ABV I wanted and didn't wanna spend more money on adding LME a second time so I havn't check anymore SG. I'm gonna do 10 days in primary, 10 in secondary and then bottle it and leave that for 2 weeks

I dont know if its just me, but my floating therometer takes forever to move up and down, so i'm going to buy a digital one before my next brew and I just don't have trust my SG reader which is a floating one as well as I have never seen it go high. I got both in a wine/beer starter kit from my LHBS. I didn't take a first run off SG, I didn't know that was important.
You can check the hydrometer by testing a sample of distilled water at its calibration temperature. If it doesn't read 1.000, apply the difference to every subsequent reading. i.e. if it reads 0.998, add 0.002 to every reading. If it reads 1.002, subtract 0.002 from every reading.

-a.

 

[dyqik]

OK, two things I can see contributing to that low of an apparent preboil gravity. Firstly, the wort must be at 60F to measure the gravity. You can correct for small increases in temperature, if you measure it, but maybe not bigger ones. Always take your o.g. after cooling to pitching temperatures.

Secondly, the wort in the boil kettle will stratify, with the denser, higher gravity wort sitting at the bottom. You need to make sure that the wort is well mixed before you take your sample.

 

[ratinator]

Ya I measured all my SG when everything was super hot nor did i stir anything. I didn't know that it mattered. I probably hit all my numbers just messed up with the hydrometer. Thanks guys, as for the dry hops they are in there fermenting, what should I do with them now?

 

[muels]

Cool your sample before attempting to read gravity. Not sure how accurate a temp correction will be when you're that far off calibration temp. Either that or buy a refractometer. Check the gravity of your fermenter, that will give you a clue to if your initial high temp readings were off. If they are not correct then you can troubleshoot from there.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew