"Add Ca(HCO3)2" -- um, how?

[balrog]

I was reading on pH and Kveik, here, and one example recipe said add 100gm Ca(HCO3)2 per 10bbl. I tried looking up Ca(HCO3)2 and find it is a term that " does not refer to a known solid compound ".

Is it just an aqueous solution used by breweries?

 

[IslandLizard]

Is it just an aqueous solution used by breweries?

Apparently.
The 100g/10bbl dosage may well be calculated based on the amount (%) the solution holds at a given temp:

Solubility in water

16.1 g/100 mL (0 °C) 16.6 g/100 mL (20 °C) 18.4 g/100 mL (100 °C)

Read about Calcium Bicarbonate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_bicarbonate

 

[VikeMan]

"100g Ca(HCO₃)2 for a 10bbl batch"

That doesn't make any sense to me, i.e. it doesn't specify a concentration within the solution, or say whether it's 100g of solution or of the dissolved ions themselves. But I see they have a "contact" link and Escarpment Labs seems to be homebrewer education friendly, so maybe ask them?

 

[bracconiere]

wouldn't it be better to just use calcium carbonate? i'd imagine even though it wouldn't be AS reactive as bicarbonate. at mash temps it would be reactive enough, wouldn't it?

or is this a concern about neutralizing power, vs how much Ca is added? if that's the case, then something like calcium hydroxide would better, maybe?

i guess i'm just wondering why you want calcium bicarb specifically? or anyone would?

 

[balrog]

@IslandLizard , that's the article where I found it wasn't a solid, which made me even more confused.
@bracconiere , calcium carbonate is notoriously not soluble unless you bubble CO2 through it, pressurized even, and that's more than I care to mess with. Yes, I'm ending that sentence with a preposition, Mom.

However, I wondered about using pickling lime, yet the point of the article I read was to promote the buffering to aid pH swings caused by the Kveik, and I know enough to know CaOH ain't go do the same thing as adding HCO's.

Anyway, thought I'd ask. I like the Voss Kveik for what I use it, but think I'm gonna walk away from the Lutra (both separate threads and shouldn't be overly discussed here) due the whole white grape/pear thing I always seem to get.

Thanks for participating, I do appreciate the answers.

 

[bracconiere]

calcium carbonate is notoriously not soluble unless you bubble CO2 through it, pressurized even,

hmm, i appreciate the response. i know it's not soluble, but it would be as it reacts with the acids in the mash at mash temp. at least that was my thought...

sounds like you're trying to add stuff to the fermenter though, i would have thought a bicarb would just go up as gas.

and that's more than I care to mess with.

i just read the wiki article, sounds like you're going to have to, to even get calcium bicarbonate? i can't seem to find a way to buy it?

(and keep in mind i'm trying to learn, not teach here, sorta piggy backing, not necessarily hijacking )

edit: like put calcium carbonate in a 2 liter bottle, then use a carb cap and give it it's max co2 pressure and shake it every day or something.....

 

[balrog]

Sorry @bracconiere , too much trouble for a "hobby" for me. I was just wondering if there was a magic savior for the Lutra Kveik.
I just kegged my second "musty" result using this yeast and was scrabbling to find anything to cure or explain it. My overbuild starter technique works fine for WY1007 and WY1450, but maybe after 3 rebuilds on Lutra it just goes musty.

I'll not be chasing the bicarb any further. If I want the Pils like crisp dry beer, I'll make the Kolsch with GigaYeast-021. Which also overbuilds to 6 generations without issue or massive flavor/process change.

 

[bracconiere]

I'll not be chasing the bicarb any further

and i was just going to throw out, maybe like stouts and light beers better with soft or hard water, hard water would naturally have it in it wouldn't it? sorry if i f'd up your thread but i got curious about calcium "bi"carbonate.....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm confused as to the fundamental intent. Rarely does beer require its final pH to be raised. Would not the yeast themselves bring the final beer pH to the one that best suits them, whether or not Calcium Bicarbonate is added? Or is the problem itself that the pH which best suits Kveik yeast is harming the beers final flavor profile?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

OK, I finally read the article (which is what I should have done earlier). The way I read the article, the author is simply utilizing Calcium Bicarbonate whereby to mash at a pH within the 5.4 to 5.5 range. Why the author chose Calcium Bicarbonate over Sodium Bicarbonate or Calcium Hydroxide is never discussed.

 

[balrog]

@Silver_Is_Money , the way I read the article is that the Kveiks have a lower pH, which may be giving the Kveik Twang mentioned in several posts/threads, and posits, "... These data present a possible solution: when brewing with kveik, especially when targeting a crisp and clean beer, it can be helpful to use water with higher buffering capacity (mineral additions). ".

 

[balrog]

oops, cross post, sorry.

I had just never seen calcium bicarb mentioned as a "simple" addition, that's kinda why I posted in the first place. If I do anything I'd use CaCl, Gypsum, Epsom personally; rarely pickling lime, but sometimes -- I have very soft water.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@Silver_Is_Money , the way I read the article is that the Kveiks have a lower pH, which may be giving the Kveik Twang mentioned in several posts/threads, and posits, "... These data present a possible solution: when brewing with kveik, especially when targeting a crisp and clean beer, it can be helpful to use water with higher buffering capacity (mineral additions). ".

The charts they provide confound me, as they indicate a typical ales final pH to be in what most would consider to be the typical Lager final pH range. Much data from yore indicates that ales should be fully expected to finish within the 3.9 to 4.3 pH range, and the chart shows all tested non-Kveik fermented ales finishing at above this range, while only Kveik fermentation does finish within this range.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I had just never seen calcium bicarb mentioned as a "simple" addition, that's kinda why I posted in the first place. If I do anything I'd use CaCl, Gypsum, Epsom personally; rarely pickling lime, but sometimes -- I have very soft water.

Actually, I'm right there with you. I've never heard of using Calcium Bicarbonate to raise mash pH before either. As with Ca(OH)2 the math behind the adjustment via Ca(HCO3)2 would be made more complex due to its Ca++ ion component lowering pH somewhat, at the same time while the HCO3- ion component is raising it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just thought of something. If Ca(OH)2 and/or Ca(HCO3)2 raise mash pH higher than would be predicted via a math model which presumes (as per the typicaly seen misapplication of Kolbach) that 3.5 mEq's of Ca++ are required whereby to liberate 1 mEq of H+ from the grist (within the confines of the mash step), then this would be yet another refutation of the viability of applying Kolbach's 3.5 divisor for Calcium to the mash, as it would indicate that Ca++ is not liberating as much H+ as the application of Kolbach's model to the mash would predict.

 

[bracconiere]

i'm going to but out after i post this PDF...calcium bicarb doesn't sound that hard to make judging from this, if you want to try it. i'm sure you have means of making carbonic acid lol


probably could just use carbonated water from the grocery store...

edit: lol, is there a such thing as a water 'Hardener'?

edit #2: i doubt this would be good in beer but aparently there is!

https://www.amazon.com/Clorox-12204...t=&hvlocphy=9051700&hvtargid=pla-896279981420

 

[mabrungard]

Since Kveik can depress the pH of BEER lower than might be desired, adding a alkaline buffer might be a good idea. While you probably are aware that chalk (CaCO3) doesn't dissolve well in plain water, it does readily dissolve in beer where there are enough 'stronger' acids present to dissolve the chalk. I don't know why the author of that original article called for Ca(HCO3)2 instead of chalk, but solid chalk can be used in beer to moderate low beer pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's what is confounding. The charted final beer pH's in the Kveik yeast fermented class (as witnessed when clicking on the hyperlink seen within the first post to this thread) are at the higher end of what is commonly considered to be mainstream normal for ales to begin with, so why raise their pH?

 

[balrog]

Sorry.
Did not mean to start a thing. I'll admit when I looked at the graphs they all seemed kinda close to me, given my experience with my pH meter, I shudder to admit the differences are within my measurement fluctuations. My personal take away was to up the water (mine starts at 3 Ca 6 Na 7 Cl and 3 SO4, or 3:6:7:3) to maybe 150:30:150:150 instead of 50:6:50:50 for instance. But I have other brews using non Kveik to do first.