B Linens

[Owly055]

Progressing from Brie to washed rind cheese........ the next thing I want to try. I have an absolutely outrageous proposal, not for the faint of heart. B linens is ever present in the environment. It makes your socks and pits stink. Being a healthy and clean person who bathes daily with a few exceptions, and refuses to douse myself with those disgusting chemicals people use to make themselves smell "pretty", I suspect that I have a fairly decent culture of B Linens growing in that nice warm moist environment we all have beneath our arms. My arm pits. I propose simply wiping my arm pits with the very same brine dampened rag I will wash the cheese with.
I'm quite sure that this is not an original thought..........somebody has done it, but nobody is talking about it. It's not a thought for the squeamish or faint of heart. However I don't recall ever suffering ill effects from licking the sweat from my girlfriend's body during sex, or from cunnilingus..... These microbes are all over out bodies, and enter our bodies through our mouths and through breaks in the skin, with no ill effects. We live in a world that is teeming with microbial life, in fact it is said that the foreign microbes in and on our bodies outnumber our own cells!! I brew, kombucha, kefir, sourdough, tempeh, beer, and now cheese, all of which involve many microbes, some of them inevitably "wild".

Is this really so outrageous? When you are done puking, think about it.......

H.W.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Nope, not outrageous, this is not the first time something like this has been done. The only issue is that you have zero idea what strains of linens you're capturing, or what else you're bringing along for the ride (indeed, other brevibacterium species can be toxic). If you want to try it, and in my honest opinion you're trying to pull off a very difficult move, I'd do at least 20 generations of micro-makes under the conditions you will be making your eventual cheese (remember - linens is a high humidity critter, needing tons of fresh air input daily. Or, you could buy any of a ton of cultured linens, mix and match, to play.

 

[Owly055]

Nope, not outrageous, this is not the first time something like this has been done. The only issue is that you have zero idea what strains of linens you're capturing, or what else you're bringing along for the ride (indeed, other brevibacterium species can be toxic). If you want to try it, and in my honest opinion you're trying to pull off a very difficult move, I'd do at least 20 generations of micro-makes under the conditions you will be making your eventual cheese (remember - linens is a high humidity critter, needing tons of fresh air input daily. Or, you could buy any of a ton of cultured linens, mix and match, to play.

I could also buy a Muenster or some other washed rind cheese as Asher would suggest. I think that in the real world, the possibility of introducing pathogens in a washed rind cheese in this way is almost nil. These cultures originally came from people handling the cheese, and from the environment, not from a lab. I suspect that at worst, I won't get exactly what I might expect, and perhaps will end up letting geotrichium and roqueforti take over. Not the end of the world, just a different product.

H.W.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You could do that, use a cheese. I ripped off tomme grise and a host of other tommes to use in my washes, and developed my own alpine morge both from a motley crew of cultured flora, and going the route I mention above. Willi Lehner here in Wisconsin has some "dirt cheeses" which are literally washed from flora harvested from the soil surrounding his home.

OK. Not sure my generational thing was gotten across. Yes, your odds of picking up a pathogenic species is low. But it's possible. You're more likely to end up with nasty cheese unless you do these repetitive makes under the conditions you want eventually - and I'd offer, it could take 100 iterations, not merely 20. Eventually, if you optimize your environmental conditions for linens, you won't have geo or roqueforti take over - because you've made a nice bed for linens. This is, after all, how cheeses come about traditionally. Not from the lab, as you say, and not even so much from people "handling the cheese," but your third - the environment. Look up the mapping Mother Noella Marcellino did on French geo spp. Terroir, and specific geo's, all different.

 

[bucketnative]

It's been done: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...d-feet-so-would-you-eat-yourself-8956653.html

I remember reading about this a while back when I followed a couple of human biome-based twitter accounts. Here's her "thesis" on the project: http://agapakis.com/cheese.pdf

 

[Owly055]

It's been done: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...d-feet-so-would-you-eat-yourself-8956653.html

I remember reading about this a while back when I followed a couple of human biome-based twitter accounts. Here's her "thesis" on the project: http://agapakis.com/cheese.pdf

This is fascinating stuff, and led me to further Utube videos on cheese, including a very in depth study of the microbial communities on cheese titled Micobial Interactions: Microbial communities of cheese rinds, Which while very technical and in depth, was very enlightening.

H.W.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That's a seminal article, which I enjoyed as well. I returned to it alot - it was one of many articles important for me in working on trying to emulate an autochthonous morge with a cultured blend, and the effect over time of environmental conditions on the morge, regardless of its origins. If it's of interest, in terms of a hard, washed rind alpine (read: Abondance, Beaufort, Gruyère, Comté, etc.), couple of variants I worked up and used:

Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%) (.8 grams)
Geo 15: 2.8% (.2 grams)

Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%) (.3 grams)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%) (.2 grams)

Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%) (1.53 grams)
FR13: (25.2%) (1.8 grams)
FR22: (28.1%) (2 grams)

Staphylococcus: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%) (.5 grams)

Morge "1":

Yeast: (10%)
DH (8%)
Geo 15: 2%

Arthrobacter (3%)
MGE: (3%)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2%)
LBC-80 (2%)

Linens (80%)
SR3: (15%)
FR13: (30%)
FR22: (35%)

Micro-Cocci: 5%
MVA (xylosum) (5%)

This was just a series of experiments and I actually practiced washing using mere brine, setting make and aging parameters, and developing a "native" morge much like I talk of above. But I wanted to see what deliberate "recipe writing" of a complex morge would yield.

My interest really grew to studying alpine grazing flora, their effect on milk and ultimately cheese characteristics, and seeing what I could come up with here in the lowland habitat of S. Wisconsin, with tarentaise cattle. In my opinion, in terms of finished, artisanal cheese, generally too little attention is paid to the grasses, legumes and forbs the cattle eat, before their milk is even produced. Lucky to have a couple of brothers doing rotational grazing to work with.

I was a serious cheesemaker and did a lot of research. OP and others, for example if you like the rind flora ecology article, here's another one you'd probably like: Biodiversity of the Bacterial Flora on the Surface of a Smear Cheese.

It's a vast subject, this notion of "terroir," native species, and cheesemaking, and it gets a ton of coverage. Due to circumstances I fairly long ago now let go of the notion of an alpine creamery using strictly traditional husbandry and cheesemaking practices. I also no longer make cheese, but glad to exchange with anyone on any of this.

 

[Owly055]

Paul:
I plan to do a small batch of something resembling Tilset this weekend. Probably 1 round from 1 gallons of milk, using kefir to culture it initially, the same kefir culture I added some brie rind to. I'll do a regular rind wash using an arm pit wipe........... about 6 hours after bathing. I work in a fairly cold environment, and I bath using unscented oil soap, and wear clean clothing every day. Weather any of that will have any bearing on the results is anybody's guess. Summertime sweaty armpits probably produce a much more diverse culture, but this time of year, I rarely see temps over about 60F, either where I work or at home where I keep the temp at a minimum. If odor alone is anything to judge by, I'm not growing much at all this time of year.

After watching the Utube the other night, I suspect that this will probably not produce an unpalatable cheese, nor am I particularly concerned about pathogens. The internal microbe population in the cheese from the kefir will be quite strong, acidic and dominant, and will include numerous desirable microbes and yeasts.

H.W.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, good luck with it. My pressing on doing generational small batches first is because this actually is traditional practice. Yearly, quite common to start anew with this process, much like working up cultured yeast in the brewery every 20 generations or so from mother stock. All I can offer is that I work traditionally, and doing this kind of native-species work up, in my experience (yours may vary), it was not uncommon to have a ton of nasty generations until finally my desired species won the day over unwanted species' dominance. All I did, as I've intimated, is kept the make and ambient conditions consistent until I got what I wanted, then I proceed to full-scale batches. Sometimes it was as few as 3-4 generations, others, many more. And this is a traditional practice.

And keep in mind, in places making cheese traditionally, they didn't decide to use foot scrapes and the next month they had what we've come to know of as justly famous, paradigmatic cheeses of a given, long tradition. Beaufort technique and microbiological raw material usage predates the Romans, for example.

At any rate, do wish you well with it, hope it comes out enjoyable for you.

 

[Owly055]

Well, good luck with it. My pressing on doing generational small batches first is because this actually is traditional practice. Yearly, quite common to start anew with this process, much like working up cultured yeast in the brewery every 20 generations or so from mother stock. All I can offer is that I work traditionally, and doing this kind of native-species work up, in my experience (yours may vary), it was not uncommon to have a ton of nasty generations until finally my desired species won the day over unwanted species' dominance. All I did, as I've intimated, is kept the make and ambient conditions consistent until I got what I wanted, then I proceed to full-scale batches. Sometimes it was as few as 3-4 generations, others, many more. And this is a traditional practice.

And keep in mind, in places making cheese traditionally, they didn't decide to use foot scrapes and the next month they had what we've come to know of as justly famous, paradigmatic cheeses of a given, long tradition. Beaufort technique and microbiological raw material usage predates the Romans, for example.

At any rate, do wish you well with it, hope it comes out enjoyable for you.

I got your point about generations from your earlier posts. You have to start somewhere. Note that this is a 1 gallon batch, and I intend to do no more than a single round this way. The milk itself will NOT be innoculated with "pit wipe", it will be used on the exterior only. Any surplus beyond a single round will be done as more feta.
H.W.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I knew you were talking about rind culture, but directly depending on the aW of the cheese and other factors, you probably know, what's on is what's in. Outside of reblochon and to a lesser extent tommes, my cheeses were all hard alpine cheeses, with very low water activity. Nevertheless, obviously the morge very much radically influences not only the rind, but the entire cheese, paste included. The case is amplified considerably for softer rind washed cheeses.

Point I'm making, is that single generation rind washing using your native flora, may or may not be to your liking...kind of a loose cannon. Makes no difference, I see what you'd like to do and it should be interesting. I'm looking forward to what you come up with.

My main point, for clarity: We can do all kinds of things, to make cheese. After we have our milk, in my opinion, far too underrated are the make and aging parameters, the environment we give to nurture our aging cheeses. Take 2 cheeses of different makes, wash them with simple brine, and optimize your cave for a type of flora development. Make them over and over again, this time for a given style. Eventually, those cheese types will start to approach one another in character; their flora ecology will approach one another, as the conditions optimize for certain species.

That's the main thing I'm trying to say. Which is why I'm arguing it's far more important to do these mini ferments, than give primacy to the captured linens and other spp. one hopes to do via body sampling.

 

[Owly055]

I knew you were talking about rind culture, but directly depending on the aW of the cheese and other factors, you probably know, what's on is what's in. Outside of reblochon and to a lesser extent tommes, my cheeses were all hard alpine cheeses, with very low water activity. Nevertheless, obviously the morge very much radically influences not only the rind, but the entire cheese, paste included. The case is amplified considerably for softer rind washed cheeses.

Point I'm making, is that single generation rind washing using your native flora, may or may not be to your liking...kind of a loose cannon. Makes no difference, I see what you'd like to do and it should be interesting. I'm looking forward to what you come up with.

My main point, for clarity: We can do all kinds of things, to make cheese. After we have our milk, in my opinion, far too underrated are the make and aging parameters, the environment we give to nurture our aging cheeses. Take 2 cheeses of different makes, wash them with simple brine, and optimize your cave for a type of flora development. Make them over and over again, this time for a given style. Eventually, those cheese types will start to approach one another in character; their flora ecology will approach one another, as the conditions optimize for certain species.

That's the main thing I'm trying to say. Which is why I'm arguing it's far more important to do these mini ferments, than give primacy to the captured linens and other spp. one hopes to do via body sampling.

It's below zero here, thus a great day for a cheese project....... I don't feel like working outside. I've decided to do my one gallon "pit cheese", in fact I just added the rennet about 20 minutes ago. I'm very loosely following the Taleggio procedure (Cheesemaking.com). I'm hoping to get it all into one round. If it ends up 2, one will be a brie....... more or less, and I innoculated with kefir, it should have some geotrichium in it. I'm not trying to make a specific product obviously.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

10 days into my "Pit Cheese" project. I've given my Taleggio a "pit wash", wiping my arm pits with a paper towel wet with whey every second day. For the record... again, I bath daily, and use no chemicals on my body whatsoever unless you include soap as a chemical. Temps here are cold.... -22 F for a low half an hour ago...... rising about 3 degrees since, and I keep my indoor temps as low as I can tolerate (for health reasons).... Low to mid 50's, as I find I'm far more resistant to colds and flu and less effected by going out into the cold if I keep the indoor temps down. So needless to say my arm pits are not especially smelly, but they rarely are. The cheese is just beginning to develop a hint of the characteristic yellow cast, and the odor seems to be what it should be. Thus far I'm happy with the results. My brie is also just beginning to show hints of white mold...... Let's see how it goes ;-)

H.W.