Questions from a newb brewer

[TattooCelt]

Greetings and salutations all my brother and sister brewers!

A couple of quesitons:

I'm brewing an Irish Red Ale, and after racking it to the second fermentation, I've noticed that the beer is continuing to produce foam - not as crusty as the Kraüsen in the first carboy...but pretty pronounced. Is this normal? The fermenting temp is at 60 degrees and I'm keeping it wrapped in a towel in my house as temps in my garage have gotten too low.

Second. I had a notion about adding in a touch of honey to a Red. Any suggestions on if this is a good idea, what stage it should be added, and any suggestions on weights?

Thanks in advance for any insights you all may have!

 

[frazier]

1) It sounds like you racked too soon. If you feel the need to do a secondary (something I almost never do), you should make sure that fermentation is basically done. How long was it in primary? At this stage, just let it ride until it's done. Do you have a hydrometer? That's your best tool at this point.

2) I have tried honey in an Irish Red, but I didn't really think it added anything. Honey is primarily composed of simple sugars that disappear in fermentation, leaving nothing behind. It will boost the alcohol and thin the beer a bit. Or, because you have racked off the primary yeast cake, the yeast will consume the honey so slowly you may think it's done, and bottle it. As the yeast continue to work the honey, you will get gushers or bottle bombs. My advice is to stick to the recipe.

Cheers,

 

[mongoose33]

How long was it in the primary before you racked to the secondary? Was it still bubbling through the airlock when you racked?

 

[CJ-3]

Agreed with frazier, that is very sound advice.

Before you add anything to your beer, ask yourself
"What is it I want to accomplish by adding this"

It's fun to add things, just be sure you know why you want to do it. Do some research on what you are adding. In your example, a lit of people have stated they are not getting the honey taste when they add just honey. But there are grains that can be used if this is what you are looking for.

By the way, welcome to the forum!

 

[m00ps]

1 - you dont need to rack to a secondary in 99% of cases. This is one of them. All it does it expose your beer to oxygen and potentially bacteria. Skip it next time and disregard the outdated instructions that tell you to

2 - FWIW, I add honey directly to the fermentor and have had good results. I find it retains a tiny bit of the aromatics when added on the post-boil side. I add it after 2-3 days of fermentation after airlock activity slows down. If you add it even as early as flameout, youll get the added sugars to your OG, but ZERO flavor. I use it like I do sugar to dry out my IPAs and Belgians. I would not use it in a malty beer like an Irish Red

 

[TattooCelt]

It was done bubbling and the layer of foam in the first car boy had settled into the beer. From what I'd read, I'd assumed it was done with the primary fermentation and ready to move to secondary. The ale had been fermenting for a week.

The only reason I'd racked it to secondary was on the suggestion to do so to clear out the ale a bit. Now, I'm reading a whole bunch of brewers who are saying that the secondary fermentation isn't necessary.

 

[theseeker4]

It was done bubbling and the layer of foam in the first car boy had settled into the beer. From what I'd read, I'd assumed it was done with the primary fermentation and ready to move to secondary. The ale had been fermenting for a week.

The only reason I'd racked it to secondary was on the suggestion to do so to clear out the ale a bit. Now, I'm reading a whole bunch of brewers who are saying that the secondary fermentation isn't necessary.

Yeah, it isn't necessary. It had been commonly assumed that racking to secondary to prevent off flavors from yeast autolysis and to help clear the beer was the best practice. However, with modern yeast strains and on a home-brew level, there is no real advantage to moving your beer to secondary other than for certain additions like fruit, and for bulk aging for multiple months. Shorter aging, dry hopping, and simply fermenting a "normal" amount of time for most beer styles does not require racking to secondary, and doing so can harm the beer by increasing the chance of infection and causing oxidation. Lots of people still use secondaries, and produce excellent beers doing so, but they are not necessary, and their use complicates things, and increases the risk of harm to the beer, for brewers who are just starting out or don't have a well-established process yet.

 

[louis]

Lots of people still use secondaries, and produce excellent beers doing so, but they are not necessary, and their use complicates things, and increases the risk of harm to the beer, for brewers who are just starting out or don't have a well-established process yet.

Hmm, I still use a secondary, always have and probably always will. While I can see that it could increase the risk of harm to the beer - I have not experienced a bad batch due to this. I do keep my equipment very clean - is this a problem some brewers have?

I can imagine a lot of cloudy beers out there with out a secondary...

Why must you make me question everything!

Back on topic, you definitly racked to early. While I do use a secondary for clearing, I have not found a problem leaving my beer an extra couple days in the primary after I thought it was done.

I agree with what has been said about the honey. Mostly it will just renew fermentation. Unless you are using a yeast with a very low alcohol tolerance, you will be feeding them again! If you want floral or other honey flavors, I would looks at adding other hops late in a boil or different grains.

 

[GHBWNY]

Yeah, it isn't necessary. It had been commonly assumed that racking to secondary to prevent off flavors from yeast autolysis and to help clear the beer was the best practice. However, with modern yeast strains and on a home-brew level, there is no real advantage to moving your beer to secondary other than for certain additions like fruit, and for bulk aging for multiple months. Shorter aging, dry hopping, and simply fermenting a "normal" amount of time for most beer styles does not require racking to secondary, and doing so can harm the beer by increasing the chance of infection and causing oxidation. Lots of people still use secondaries, and produce excellent beers doing so, but they are not necessary, and their use complicates things, and increases the risk of harm to the beer, for brewers who are just starting out or don't have a well-established process yet.

This^

@OP, any significant off-taste you might get from your primary fermentation vessel would be from the krausen if it somehow gets mixed back into the beer, since it is very bitter/astringent. Normally, it either clings to the sides of the vessel or exits through a blow-off tube, so that's rarely a problem. "Getting the beer off the spent yeast" [by doing a secondary] has become an old-wive's tale that the kit manufacturers (and older texts) have for whatever reason failed to refute. When starting out, we are all prone to following whatever advice/instructions the kit tells us because we simply don't know any different. The best advice you can get is here on HBT, and we're glad to see you here!

 

[TattooCelt]

If it turns out that I racked too early to the second...which I'm not thinking I'm going to continue doing...is this going to affect the final taste of the ale? When I checked this morning before leaving for work, it was still bubbling and producing foam. Seems like the yeast is still doing it's thing.

 

[surgical_ass]

Unless I missed it being said already , cold crash if you are concerned with clarity. Like it was mentioned earlier only secondary if you are planning on aging on fruit, oak, etc. If it started fermentation back up it will be fine. There is enough yeast left to clean up and get your fg down to where it needs to be. (as long as your ambient temp is where it need to be to support fermentation) As for honey addition. I have added honey to just about every aspect of the process and have had very little luck. Best thing I have found is honey malt at around 5% of grain bill depending on your desired sweetness level

 

[TattooCelt]

Thanks for all of the advice, comments and help! I've been wanting to get into home brewing for awhile, and am having a blast so far. I'm planning to start my next batch - a Chocolate Milk Stout - in a couple of weeks. This one I'm going to keep in primary fermentation only and see how that goes.

Again, the support and friendliness I've found here has been awesome! Thanks tons!

 

[louis]

If it turns out that I racked too early to the second...which I'm not thinking I'm going to continue doing...is this going to affect the final taste of the ale? When I checked this morning before leaving for work, it was still bubbling and producing foam. Seems like the yeast is still doing it's thing.

I don't think it will cause a problem. While I use a primary bucket, I've heard many people fermenting a primary in a carboy.

So, for those who forgo the carboy and keep it in your primary buckets, do you keep it in longer? (ie, primary time + secondary time)? or just tell the you get your stabilized OG?

 

[theseeker4]

Hmm, I still use a secondary, always have and probably always will. While I can see that it could increase the risk of harm to the beer - I have not experienced a bad batch due to this. I do keep my equipment very clean - is this a problem some brewers have?

I can imagine a lot of cloudy beers out there with out a secondary...

Why must you make me question everything!

Back on topic, you definitly racked to early. While I do use a secondary for clearing, I have not found a problem leaving my beer an extra couple days in the primary after I thought it was done.

I agree with what has been said about the honey. Mostly it will just renew fermentation. Unless you are using a yeast with a very low alcohol tolerance, you will be feeding them again! If you want floral or other honey flavors, I would looks at adding other hops late in a boil or different grains.

As to a lot of cloudy beers out there, there might be, but the lack of secondary isn't the reason. Some of my beers are crystal clear, and never saw anything other than a primary and a bottle. You definitely can get crystal clear beers without using a secondary. If using one works for you, great. It is just simpler for a new brewer to forgo that step, and reduces their risk of hurting their beer.

 

[mongoose33]

Yeah, it isn't necessary. It had been commonly assumed that racking to secondary to prevent off flavors from yeast autolysis and to help clear the beer was the best practice. However, with modern yeast strains and on a home-brew level, there is no real advantage to moving your beer to secondary other than for certain additions like fruit, and for bulk aging for multiple months. Shorter aging, dry hopping, and simply fermenting a "normal" amount of time for most beer styles does not require racking to secondary, and doing so can harm the beer by increasing the chance of infection and causing oxidation. Lots of people still use secondaries, and produce excellent beers doing so, but they are not necessary, and their use complicates things, and increases the risk of harm to the beer, for brewers who are just starting out or don't have a well-established process yet.

Let me throw my 2 cents in.

I'm a new brewer also, and just completed fermenting an English bitter with a couple pounds extra of DME. This on the suggestion of my LHBS owner who heard what I was trying to replicate, and suggested the additional DME.

Anyway, I've read all the "rack to secondary" posts I can, and concluded that I'd try just leaving the fermenter alone.

It was scary--I produced the most gawdawful smells coming out of that fermenter. Horrible fruity notes, when what I'm looking for is a malty beer with no such overtones. It was bubbling like crazy for 4 days, but then it finally settled down.

The expectation was that leaving it sit on the yeast cake would help clean up those off flavors. I just hoped and prayed (well, mostly hoped, because I don't think God intervenes on behalf of inept brewers).

Well. Yesterday, after three weeks in the primary, nirvana! The beer tastes wonderful even though it's flat and warm--I can't wait to get it carbonated and cold. It was delicious as it was, with no overtones of fruity flavors at all.

Other than beers that require months of conditioning or aging, I can't see at this point why I'd move from primary to secondary, unless it's simply to open up the primary so I can get something else in the pipeline. And I'm actually looking to get one or two more primary fermenters so I don't even have to do that.

 

[TattooCelt]

So, here are a couple of shots of what's going on with the brew.

It's been in the secondary for 24 hours
It's still giving off bubbles - around 5 burps a minute
It's wrapped in a dark towel to keep light out
Temperature of the brew is at 62 degrees

I was panicking that I was going to come home to an overflow...but it's been very content to sit and burp. The foam seems to have subsided a bit from this morning.

 

[surgical_ass]

I would take a gravity reading to see if you're where you want to be. If the gravity is still high I would try and raise the temp a few degrees to help it finish up. Looks like it definatley wasnt done fermenting

 

[slym2none]

I can imagine a lot of cloudy beers out there with out a secondary...

That's a myth.

 

[slym2none]

I would take a gravity reading to see if you're where you want to be. If the gravity is still high I would try and raise the temp a few degrees to help it finish up.

Or, just wait a little longer if you aren't in a rush. If a yeast will start fermenting at a certain temperature, it will finish & clean up at the same temps.

I just feel like telling a newbie brewer that he has to "ramp his temps up" to "ensure complete attenuation" is not a good thing. It isn't even true. Let the new guy learn a few things before throwing all this on him, I say.

 

[ncbrewer]

Or, just wait a little longer if you aren't in a rush. If a yeast will start fermenting at a certain temperature, it will finish & clean up at the same temps.

I just feel like telling a newbie brewer that he has to "ramp his temps up" to "ensure complete attenuation" is not a good thing. It isn't even true. Let the new guy learn a few things before throwing all this on him, I say.

Yes - I think "just wait a little longer" is the key here. I've read many posts on this forum lately about ramping the temperature up, but I think it's really just to finish a little faster. Maybe some of the "ramping up" proponents will post here.

 

[GHBWNY]

I just hoped and prayed (well, mostly hoped, because I don't think God intervenes on behalf of inept brewers).

Well. Yesterday, after three weeks in the primary, nirvana! The beer tastes wonderful even though it's flat and warm--I can't wait to get it carbonated and cold. It was delicious as it was, with no overtones of fruity flavors at all.

Or maybe He does afterall?

 

[mongoose33]

Originally Posted by mongoose33

I just hoped and prayed (well, mostly hoped, because I don't think God intervenes on behalf of inept brewers).

Well. Yesterday, after three weeks in the primary, nirvana! The beer tastes wonderful even though it's flat and warm--I can't wait to get it carbonated and cold. It was delicious as it was, with no overtones of fruity flavors at all.

Or maybe He does afterall?

Maybe so....I had it carbonated and last night I pulled the first brew off that keg and it was....Nirvana!

Oh, wait--Nirvana is the wrong religion. Or maybe the right one? I don't know--all I know is that the beer was darned close to what I was hoping for.

 

[TattooCelt]

Activity has pretty much dropped off to nothing at this point and the ale's been sitting at a consistent 66 degrees for a few days now. Just got my hydrometer, and am thinking about taking some gravity readings, but my beer thief hasn't arrived yet. Is it really necessary, or would careful use of the hydrometer in the carboy be ok?

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Hydrometer in the bucket is fine, so long as it's sanitized. Pulling a sample just helps when bubbles of any sort would make doing that impossible (and to allow you to taste it), and reading it accurately is easier.

Or you can just sanitize a turkey baster and pull a sample that way.

 

[GHBWNY]

Or you can just sanitize a turkey baster and pull a sample that way.

This^. Or what I also have is a 100ml plastic syringe with a 12" length of 1/4" tubing attached to the end. So that I don't have to remove the lid of my ferm bucket (or stopper from a carboy), I pull the airlock and stick the tubing inside and draw a sample, sanitize the airlock stem and put it back. With my hydro sitting in the plastic case that it came in, adding 100ml of liquid brings it right up to the rim.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

That's pretty brilliant. I'll have to look into picking one of those syringes up.

 

[TattooCelt]

Weight was perfect, taste was amazing. This is what the Irish Red Ale looked like just before bottling. Thanks for all the help along the way on my first brew!

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Nice looking. Bottled an Irish Ale myself this afternoon. Good on ya, mate.

Welcome to the jungle.