Switched to BevSeal Ultra tubing; weird pours. ??

[mongoose33]

I switched over to BevSeal Ultra tubing to avoid issues of oxidation through my thin-walled liquid keg lines.

Some of them work well (I have 5 lines), but I get this very weird start, which is shown in the video here (14 seconds):



After I get past that initial foaming/sputtering, it pours normally. This second short video shows a pour right after the first one (6 seconds):



I've tried adjusting the flow controls (these are Perlicks) and it doesn't affect anything. I know that initial pours through a warm faucet can foam, but these are sputtering. Often the first thing out is a sputter, then smoother for a bit, then a sputter before it settles down.

I have 10-15 feet of bevseal tubing, so it's not too short. I'm also using the John Guest connectors Bobby at BrewHardware sells to connect these to bother QDs on the kegs as well as to the shanks in place of tailpieces.


Any ideas what's causing this? Is it endemic to the Bevseal tubing? Or the connectors?

 

[day_trippr]

How long did it take to install the lines?
And how long did you let your dispensing system cool back down afterwards?

I have to believe there was a lot of CO2 build-up inside the line to have it start up like that. And that could simply be due to the system being out of equilibrium due to the temporary warm-up while you were changing the lines over...

Cheers!

 

[mongoose33]

How long did it take to install the lines?
And how long did you let your dispensing system cool back down afterwards?

I have to believe there was a lot of CO2 build-up inside the line to have it start up like that. And that could simply be due to the system being out of equilibrium due to the temporary warm-up while you were changing the lines over...

Cheers!

Good idea but....it's been weeks.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Are your clamps TIGHT. Looks to me like air in your line. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

Are your clamps TIGHT. Looks to me like air in your line. Cheers

They're John Guest connectors:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pushshank.htm

and

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pushffl.htm

 

[phreaky]

Usually, wen I see first pours like that, then the rest ok, it's because the beer line has warmed up and the CO2 has come out of solution in the line. Do you have a fan circulating the air keeping everything the same temp? When I first built my keezer, I had up to a 15 degree temperature difference between the floor and the faucets at times. Moving the air around fixed it right up.

 

[RJSkypala]

I switched my 2-tap system over to BevSeal Ultra a couple months ago. At first they were both pouring perfectly. I recently moved a few things around in there and one of my taps is behaving identical to yours.

I am attributing it to a temp differential as it is the line closest to the keezer collar. I haven't' had time to move things around and check on this though. I am using John Guest fittings as well so I'm not sure how to check for O2 ingress.....

 

[LittleRiver]

My initial pour is similar to what is shown in the OP's videos, but with less sputtering and foam. After those first few ounces it pours fine. I attributed this to the faucets initially being warmer than the beer, and I thought this was normal(?).

I sometimes dispose of those first couple of ounces (down my throat), then pull a full glass. That initial bit cools the faucet, it immediately feels colder and condensation starts forming on it. After that it does not sputter or foam. Other times I'll let those first few ounces settle in the glass (not long, maybe 15-20 seconds), then continue filling the glass.

I have Intertap flow control faucets, BevSeal Ultra lines that are about 8' long, John Guest fittings, and right angle John Guest adapters on the back of my shanks. I have a fan located about an inch off the floor of the keezer, blowing upward.

 

[mongoose33]

Usually, wen I see first pours like that, then the rest ok, it's because the beer line has warmed up and the CO2 has come out of solution in the line. Do you have a fan circulating the air keeping everything the same temp? When I first built my keezer, I had up to a 15 degree temperature difference between the floor and the faucets at times. Moving the air around fixed it right up.

I do have a fan circulating air, but it's on the hump. I'd think the air is being well-circulated in there, but you've motivated me to check temps to see.

 

[kiwipen]

Are your clamps TIGHT. Looks to me like air in your line. Cheers

Can air get in the lines when the lines are filled with pressurized beer? Shouldn't the beer be leaking out, or am I missing something?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Can air get in the lines when the lines are filled with pressurized beer? Shouldn't the beer be leaking out, or am I missing something?

It can definitely get air in the lines without a leak. It happened to me first hand. It can also be caused by temp differentials as others have noted but if it's only started since changing the lines that sounds unlikely. Cheers

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Are the lines inserted all the way into the JG fitting? Does that first pour feel significantly warmer than the second? I have the same fittings and lines

 

[day_trippr]

Can air get in the lines when the lines are filled with pressurized beer?[...]

"Air"? No, sucking "air" into a positively pressurized hydraulic system is pretty unlikely.
The pockets forming in the beer line are CO2...

Cheers!

 

[Blazinlow86]

"Air"? No, sucking "air" into a positively pressurized hydraulic system is pretty unlikely.
The pockets forming in the beer line are CO2...

Cheers!

Maybe sucking air is the incorrect wording. The tap I had issues with due to the missing clamp would after awhile have a visible air pocket anywhere from 1-4 inches long in the line at the shank. No idea the science behind it. The beer would then come out exactly as the video showed and clear up after a second. I have 16 Corny kegs and it happened with all of them. I didn't really care and just left it for at least a few months. Added a clamp to that tap probably a year ago and immediately the airpocket disappeared and haven't had any issues since. Mongoose is a pretty smart guy . I can't see him accidentally/mistakenly changing his cooling methods causing the typical foamy first pour or not noticing that it was like this prior to changing the lines. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

Usually, wen I see first pours like that, then the rest ok, it's because the beer line has warmed up and the CO2 has come out of solution in the line. Do you have a fan circulating the air keeping everything the same temp? When I first built my keezer, I had up to a 15 degree temperature difference between the floor and the faucets at times. Moving the air around fixed it right up.

When I came home tonite I put my Thermapen on top of the kegs where the lines are. I checked it when after dinner and whereas the Inkbird temp probe (in a jar of water) read 36.3, the Thermapen showed 39. So there's about...maybe 3 degrees difference? Is that enough to matter?

I repositioned the fan to blow up toward where the lines are, we'll see how that is in an hour.

 

[Blazinlow86]

When I came home tonite I put my Thermapen on top of the kegs where the lines are. I checked it when after dinner and whereas the Inkbird temp probe (in a jar of water) read 36.3, the Thermapen showed 39. So there's about...maybe 3 degrees difference? Is that enough to matter?

I repositioned the fan to blow up toward where the lines are, we'll see how that is in an hour.

Is it only the suspect keg/tap that has the temp differential? If so I'd say it's possible. If it worked great before and you didn't change anything cooling wise I'd say no. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

When I came home tonite I put my Thermapen on top of the kegs where the lines are. I checked it when after dinner and whereas the Inkbird temp probe (in a jar of water) read 36.3, the Thermapen showed 39. So there's about...maybe 3 degrees difference? Is that enough to matter?

I repositioned the fan to blow up toward where the lines are, we'll see how that is in an hour.

Well, I'm surprised. I let the keezer sit for about 3 hours after repositioning the fan, then I pulled a beer. Guess what? Poured far better, almost what I'd consider normal.

There was a little foaming but nothing that can't be attributed to the faucet being warm. I only had an inch of foam on top of a pint, which was fine.

I'll do a little more experimenting with this, but the early returns are encouraging.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Well, I'm surprised. I let the keezer sit for about 3 hours after repositioning the fan, then I pulled a beer. Guess what? Poured far better, almost what I'd consider normal.

There was a little foaming but nothing that can't be attributed to the faucet being warm. I only had an inch of foam on top of a pint, which was fine.

I'll do a little more experimenting with this, but the early returns are encouraging.

1 inch of foam on the first pour of the day is great. Maybe the fan got moved when you were changing the lines? Cheers

 

[cswant88]

Did you recently force carb the beer? I’ve never used the bev-seal, but did a little research because I’m considering switching to it. I saw someone claiming that if you over carb the beer, then turn down to the proper serving pressure, co2 comes out of solution in the lines. Since you use longer lengths of tubing with the bev-seal, it settles at the top of every loop in the line and results in a sputtering pour.

If you suspect this is a possibility, bleeding off the excess pressure until the carbonation equalizes may help clear it up.

 

[mongoose33]

Did you recently force carb the beer? I’ve never used the bev-seal, but did a little research because I’m considering switching to it. I saw someone claiming that if you over carb the beer, then turn down to the proper serving pressure, co2 comes out of solution in the lines. Since you use longer lengths of tubing with the bev-seal, it settles at the top of every loop in the line and results in a sputtering pour.

If you suspect this is a possibility, bleeding off the excess pressure until the carbonation equalizes may help clear it up.

Good idea, but that's not what it is. Had a beer tonite from a keg that was just put on serving pressure and that was it, and still had a little of the initial foaming, then beer, then a sputter of foam again. It's been reduced by the fan blowing cold air on the tubing, but not completely solved. It's less, though.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Good idea, but that's not what it is. Had a beer tonite from a keg that was just put on serving pressure and that was it, and still had a little of the initial foaming, then beer, then a sputter of foam again. It's been reduced by the fan blowing cold air on the tubing, but not completely solved. It's less, though.

Did you ever figure this out? I installed these Saturday and have the same issue. I initially thought it might be because I didn't put them in the fittings tight enough, or because the beer line was room temperature when I hooked it up. But 2 days later, it still sputters. When I look at the beer line, I can see some beer followed by several inches of white empty space(which I assume is air or co2).

 

[day_trippr]

It's CO2, and assuming the beer is sitting at equilibrium wrt dissolved volumes of CO2*, it comes from the beer when the lines get warmer than the bottom of the keg. It doesn't take much of a temperature differential though obviously higher is worse.

* otoh, if the combination of temperature and CO2 pressure is not maintaining a higher level of carbonation then one should expect the beer to out-gas CO2 until the new equilibrium is established...

Cheers!

 

[mongoose33]

Did you ever figure this out? I installed these Saturday and have the same issue. I initially thought it might be because I didn't put them in the fittings tight enough, or because the beer line was room temperature when I hooked it up. But 2 days later, it still sputters. When I look at the beer line, I can see some beer followed by several inches of white empty space(which I assume is air or co2).

Yeah, I did, Matt. The details are in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bubbles-in-bevseal-lines.667677/

The solution was that I had a fan in the keezer but it had, for all intents and purposes, crapped out. There was a significant temperature difference between the bottom of the keezer and up by the lid, where the lines are. The first pic below shows the bubbles in the lines; the second shows how it is tonite, with the third showing how the new fan is positioned in the keezer.

Problem solved. The reason was that carbonated beer, cold from the bottom of the kegs, would sit in the lines, warm up, and then what happens? CO2 comes out of solution.

BTW: the half-growlers are stored in the keezer so when and if I want to fill one, it's already cold.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Your lines look exactly like mine, with the white bubbles in there. I'll have to look into putting a fan in there, as I currently don't have one.

I wonder if another option is to just hang the line lower in the keg. I can get a hook that hangs on the handle of the keg, and down the side of it. Then put the beer line there, so that it's hanging in the middle of the kegerator (and against the keg) instead of having all of the line in the top of the keg. It should stay colder that way, and it won't get in the way as much.

 

[mongoose33]

Your lines look exactly like mine, with the white bubbles in there. I'll have to look into putting a fan in there, as I currently don't have one.

I wonder if another option is to just hang the line lower in the keg. I can get a hook that hangs on the handle of the keg, and down the side of it. Then put the beer line there, so that it's hanging in the middle of the kegerator (and against the keg) instead of having all of the line in the top of the keg. It should stay colder that way, and it won't get in the way as much.

It'll be better if you can get the lines lower, but they won't be perfect, because you're still going to have the lines rise to the level of the faucets.

At one point in testing mine, I think I had as much as an 18-degree difference from the floor of the keezer to just inside the lid. That's just huge with this.

As far as fans go, you can get one for about $8. Lots of people put computer fans in their keezers, but I just wanted a simple desktop fan. It also depends on how you want to run the power cord as to how you do it. I have my collar sitting on foam pickup-bed tape, so i can just pass the cord under the collar.

This is the kind of fan I have:

https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...1-c-12727.htm?tid=-6991036260387845679&ipos=3

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I have a 12V 120mm pc fan standing upright on the compressor hump blowing the long way, and it keeps the top to bottom keezer air temperature differential within ~1.5°F...

Cheers!

 

[LittleRiver]

I routed my beer lines (BevSeal 235) around the inside of my collar. This keeps them out of the way when switching kegs. It also allows great airflow around the lines, which keeps them cold.

My fan is located on the bottom of the freezer, below the shank area, blowing upward. You can just barely see it in the bottom right of the photo. I get about 1degF difference between bottom and top.

My lines are about 7' long. I get great pours even though the lines are considerably shorter than than the calculators and conventional wisdom say they should be. I attribute this to some built-in resistance due to the right angle shank adapters, and some resistance from the flow control device in the faucets (even when wide open).

For normal pours I have the flow control wide open, I only throttle it down when filling bottles or growlers. I close the flow control after a pour as insurance against my cat knocking a faucet handle when I'm away. On the Intertap faucets the flow control will completely shut off the flow.

So far I've been very pleased with how well all this works.

 

[kiwipen]

That's a clean looking setup! Not like the wild lines all over my kegerator.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I've thought about wrapping my lines around the collar like LittleRiver, although it wouldn't be quite as tidy. I was thinking about just putting some of these around the collar, and laying the line on them.

https://www.amazon.com/Tetra-Teknic...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8RBJ75KM5XGMXXZG7C5H

I have 16 feet of line for each tap so it would wrap around a little more, but for the most part it would stay out of the middle of the keezer and make it easier to get kegs in and out.

I'll buy a fan though, to help with the temperature issue. And in the meantime, I'll dangle the lines off of the hook like I mentioned above, just to see how that works.

 

[brew703]

I have a similar problem as the OP. JG fittings and same line. I have a computer fan mounted on the collar facing down, which runs 24/7. I have a two tap keezer and I keep my lines coiled and zip tied and placed in between the two kegs so that the temp swing is reduced. I also run an Inkbird with the temp set at 35 degrees with a 1 degree difference. My first couple ounces are noticeably warmer then what comes straight from the keg after the initial pour. After the first couple ounces then there is no sputtering and all is good.
So my plan now is to get either a desk fan or another computer fan and place on the compressor hump so the air blows from one end of the keezer to the other.
When I get home today, I will have to check the temp at the top of my kegs just to see what the difference is. I suspect it will be similar to what the OP posted (18 degree).

 

[brew703]

I routed my beer lines (BevSeal 235) around the inside of my collar. This keeps them out of the way when switching kegs. It also allows great airflow around the lines, which keeps them cold.

My fan is located on the bottom of the freezer, below the shank area, blowing upward. You can just barely see it in the bottom right of the photo. I get about 1degF difference between bottom and top.

My lines are about 7' long. I get great pours even though the lines are considerably shorter than than the calculators and conventional wisdom say they should be. I attribute this to some built-in resistance due to the right angle shank adapters, and some resistance from the flow control device in the faucets (even when wide open).

For normal pours I have the flow control wide open, I only throttle it down when filling bottles or growlers. I close the flow control after a pour as insurance against my cat knocking a faucet handle when I'm away. On the Intertap faucets the flow control will completely shut off the flow.

So far I've been very pleased with how well all this works.

View attachment 639027

Man that's clean. I'm planning on re-doing my collar, just a different color and may go this route.

 

[brew703]

So, got home, put my wireless BBQ thermometer on one of my kegs and the other right near the bottom of the keezer (not touching the floor). Both are measureing 25 degrees which I do not believe is correct. My first pour kinda sputtered a little. Drank that then poured a pint and no sputtering. Took a temp reading of my poured brew with my Thermapen and it measured 34.4 degrees. So maybe the 25 degrees is correct. I have another wireless thermometer which I will try and see what that shows.

 

[day_trippr]

You can expect swings perhaps as low as 25°F in a keezer. After all the machine was designed to optimally maintain sub-zero temperatures so what rolls off the evaporator-lined section of the cabinet interior is freaky cold.

fwiw, this is the plot of my keezer over the last 24 hours. I run a 2°F differential using the Keg channel to control the compressor (probe strapped to the side of a keg with 1" of closed cell foam over it). The cabinet temperature got as low as 28°F here.

Note how close the Upper and Lower probes track. That's all about the "stirring" fan...

I'll also note the compressor cycled just 5 times in that 24 hours...

Cheers!

 

[brew703]

I can see how that would happen. Right now, it's sitting at 35 degrees. My inkirb is registering 33.8.

 

[LittleRiver]

That's a clean looking setup! ...

Man that's clean ...

Thanks!

It's a compact keezer, and I knew switching kegs would be a hassle if I had loops of beer line in the way, so I put in the extra effort up front to get the lines out of the way. I used short shanks and right angle shank adapters for the same reason, to make sure the beer lines didn't get in the way when switching kegs.

The side benefits are that the separated beer lines get cold air flowing all around them, and I was able to cut down on line length and still get good pours. I was hoping it would work out that way, but I didn't know for sure until I built it.

 

[mongoose33]

So, got home, put my wireless BBQ thermometer on one of my kegs and the other right near the bottom of the keezer (not touching the floor). Both are measureing 25 degrees which I do not believe is correct. My first pour kinda sputtered a little. Drank that then poured a pint and no sputtering. Took a temp reading of my poured brew with my Thermapen and it measured 34.4 degrees. So maybe the 25 degrees is correct. I have another wireless thermometer which I will try and see what that shows.

???

I am not following. If you poured a beer into a glass that should have been fairly cold, it's hard to understand how beer measured at 25 degrees is, in your glass, 34 degrees.

What about putting the thermapen in the freezer and come back for it in a few minutes?

 

[day_trippr]

That's actually not unreasonable, ime. I holds my kegs between 34 and 36°F but beer in the glass is around 42°F - for a first pour, at least.

I suspect the OP was measuring air temperature inside the keezer, not the keg temperature. At 25°F there'd be a big beersicle...

Cheers!

 

[mongoose33]

That's actually not unreasonable, ime. I holds my kegs between 34 and 36°F but beer in the glass is around 42°F - for a first pour, at least.

I suspect the OP was measuring air temperature inside the keezer, not the keg temperature. At 25°F there'd be a big beersicle...

Cheers!

His was a second pour....

He needs to put that thermapen in there, IMO. That's what I used...

 

[day_trippr]

Even so he'd be measuring the cabinet air temperature and as my chart shows that can be all over the place.
If it's important enough he needs to check the beer temperature inside and outside...

Cheers!

 

[cswant88]

I routed my beer lines (BevSeal 235) around the inside of my collar. This keeps them out of the way when switching kegs. It also allows great airflow around the lines, which keeps them cold.

My fan is located on the bottom of the freezer, below the shank area, blowing upward. You can just barely see it in the bottom right of the photo. I get about 1degF difference between bottom and top.

My lines are about 7' long. I get great pours even though the lines are considerably shorter than than the calculators and conventional wisdom say they should be. I attribute this to some built-in resistance due to the right angle shank adapters, and some resistance from the flow control device in the faucets (even when wide open).

For normal pours I have the flow control wide open, I only throttle it down when filling bottles or growlers. I close the flow control after a pour as insurance against my cat knocking a faucet handle when I'm away. On the Intertap faucets the flow control will completely shut off the flow.

So far I've been very pleased with how well all this works.

View attachment 639027

Is it weird that I want to drop a keg in your keezer. I bet it just drops in real easy like. My keezer needs this.