Kveik for Kölsch?

[Tony B]

A couple of the first few batches I brewed were kolsch and I’d like to brew another soon, but have no fermentation temp control and temperatures are rising. I was wondering what if any strains of kveik might do this style justice. Have any of you tried this?

 

[eliastheodosis]

Oh no....here we go again

 

[BongoYodeler]

It won't be a kolsch, but it'll be beer. It will be up to you if you like it and want to explore it further. But personally I would choose a different style to brew with Kveik, as I think you'd most likely be disappointed using it in a kolsch. I do however see it as an option for those who don't have fermentation temp control to still be able to brew during the warmest of temperatures. There's many threads on this site discussing what you can and can't expect from a Kveik yeast.

 

[Tony B]

As an alternative, does WLP029 work well in the low to mid 70’s? This is what I used previously with great results when fermented in the recommended temp range.

 

[BongoYodeler]

As an alternative, does WLP029 work well in the low to mid 70’s?

From White Labs:

FERMENTATION TEMPERATURE :​

65° - 69° F
18° - 21° C

When I fermented a kolsch with 029 I kept it in the low 60's. Took a while but it turned out quite good.

 

[Miraculix]

Nobody would think about using a saison or a hefeweizen yeast to brew a specific and different style than stated in their name. Why do so many people think that kveik is different?

Kveik works in kveik. That's a beer.

Evaluation process of how to determine wether or not kveik yeast produces the beer style in question:

Question: Is the given beer style a kveik?

If the answer to the above question is yes:
yes, it will produce the beer style you are after!

If the answer to the above is no:
No, it won't produce the beer style you are after. Instead your will get a maybe weird and maybe interesting and maybe even nice to drink kveik style beer, but it will certainly not be the beer style you are after.

 

[rtstrider]

If you're dead set on Kveik I think Lutra would be a strain that could be tried. I'd keep the kolsch at the higher end of the IBU's, and lutra around 68F, though to help cover up some of the esters. Novalager could make a koslch too but I'm not a fan of that strain and that's not kveik.

 

[Miraculix]

Lutra does not have much esters to be covered. it is more about the kveik twang, kind of acidic something that makes it unsuitable.

 

[Tony B]

I appreciate the responses. I guess I’ll wait until next winter for another batch of Kolsch style and stick with the WLP029.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I appreciate the responses. I guess I’ll wait until next winter for another batch of Kolsch style and stick with the WLP029.

I think that's a good idea. If you really enjoy a nice kolsch you probably wouldn't be thrilled with a kveik kolsch.

I do think I have less negativity towards kveik than a lot of folks around here have. But in general I do agree with @Miraculix in post #6 above. However folks who live in hotter climates, and don't have a good way to keep fermentation temperatures in check, still want to brew beers too. If you can accept the caveats that come with kveik I think you can still design a recipe that is both drinkable and enjoyable. A few years ago I brewed a neipa that I fermented with Voss Kveik and after an initial harshness it was quite enjoyable. While something like 1318, or even Verdant, would've undoubtedly made a better beer, it still turned out better than a few of the commercial examples I've had.

Here's a pic...

 

[rtstrider]

Lutra does not have much esters to be covered. it is more about the kveik twang, kind of acidic something that makes it unsuitable.

I've never gotten a twang from Lutra. But it definitely has esters. Also the fermentations were kept sub 75F so that may have helped

 

[Miraculix]

I appreciate the responses. I guess I’ll wait until next winter for another batch of Kolsch style and stick with the WLP029.

How cool can you keep it? Wlp800 makes a really decent beer at about 20-23 c. It is a tad bit fruity, basically just like a kölsch.

Or you could go all in and brew whatever beer you are after with belle saison at 35 c. It is pretty clean at this temperature, I don't taste any saison at that temperature at all. It's not a kölsch but it will be a nice beer.

 

[Tony B]

I think that's a good idea. If you really enjoy a nice kolsch you probably wouldn't be thrilled with a kveik kolsch.

I do think I have less negativity towards kveik than a lot of folks around here have. But in general I do agree with @Miraculix in post #6 above. However folks who live in hotter climates, and don't have a good way to keep fermentation temperatures in check, still want to brew beers too. If you can accept the caveats that come with kveik I think you can still design a recipe that is both drinkable and enjoyable. A few years ago I brewed a neipa that I fermented with Voss Kveik and after an initial harshness it was quite enjoyable. While something like 1318, or even Verdant, would've undoubtedly made a better beer, it still turned out better than a few of the commercial examples I've had.

Here's a pic...
View attachment 848385

That looks delicious. I have only brewed about 6 batches and though I’d love to brew a neipa, I am going to wait until I have my process down. I have brewed 3 batches with lutra. 2 WCIPA’s and I have a blonde ale using lutra in an FV right now. So far they have been decent, but overall I have a lot to learn and work on before I produce something I’m truly proud of. High hopes for this summer and I’ll be using a couple kveik strains and possibly dip into some Belgian and saison strains since I have no ferm chamber or temp control other than the wet towel technique.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Lutra does not have much esters to be covered. it is more about the kveik twang, kind of acidic something that makes it unsuitable.

I've never gotten a twang from Lutra. But it definitely has esters. Also the fermentations were kept sub 75F so that may have helped

^^^ This is what I meant with my first post I'm not saying either person is right or wrong. Actually, pretty positive both know what they are doing! I ferment Lutra in the low 70s. It gets fairly crisp after some lagering. I don't get a super strong character from it, but it's definitely a different flavor. Every setup and palate is different.

@Tony B I say try a "cleaner" style of beer with Lutra at some point if your cooling setup is limited. That might be the the blonde ale if it was a pretty simple recipe. Let your own taste buds decide if you like Lutra. I've definitely enjoyed some Lutra pilsners fermented in the lower 70s. It won't give you a traditional kölsch or helles, but it does make beer. If you like it then go with it.

You might have enough success with evaporative cooling using the towel to get into a reasonable range for some other yeasts too. Depends on the ambient temp and humidity. Some good suggestions above.

Agreed with @Miraculix about Belle too. Belle has way more character to me when fermented in the low 70s vs 90s. And how did this become a saison thread?!? Not complaining

 

[leedspointbrew]

How cool can you keep it? Wlp800 makes a really decent beer at about 20-23 c. It is a tad bit fruity, basically just like a kölsch.

Or you could go all in and brew whatever beer you are after with belle saison at 35 c. It is pretty clean at this temperature, I don't taste any saison at that temperature at all. It's not a kölsch but it will be a nice beer.

OK. This thread has intersected with a thread that I had started about Belle Saison - making a biere de garde with it. But what I'm really after is, as Miraculix is saying, a nice beer with the one pack of Belle Saison that I have. His post has established that it might very well be a clean beer, without the Saison character that I'm not after. But other posts have suggested that Belle is a monster yeast that will attenuate it like crazy and make a very dry, thin beer - this is also something that I'm not after.
So my question is, to get back to the thread I'm on and answer my own question is : is there any way to fatten up a beer that uses Belle Saison, so that it's not thin and dry, and still nice and (relatively) clean?
Thank you.

 

[Miraculix]

OK. This thread has intersected with a thread that I had started about Belle Saison - making a biere de garde with it. But what I'm really after is, as Miraculix is saying, a nice beer with the one pack of Belle Saison that I have. His post has established that it might very well be a clean beer, without the Saison character that I'm not after. But other posts have suggested that Belle is a monster yeast that will attenuate it like crazy and make a very dry, thin beer - this is also something that I'm not after.
So my question is, to get back to the thread I'm on and answer my own question is : is there any way to fatten up a beer that uses Belle Saison, so that it's not thin and dry, and still nice and (relatively) clean?
Thank you.

Belle will excrete a load of glycerin which will counteract the low fg very effectively. Or won't taste thin at all.

Just keep the low fg in mind when calculating the desired alcohol amount.

^^^ This is what I meant with my first post I'm not saying either person is right or wrong. Actually, pretty positive both know what they are doing! I ferment Lutra in the low 70s. It gets fairly crisp after some lagering. I don't get a super strong character from it, but it's definitely a different flavor. Every setup and palate is different.

@Tony B I say try a "cleaner" style of beer with Lutra at some point if your cooling setup is limited. That might be the the blonde ale if it was a pretty simple recipe. Let your own taste buds decide if you like Lutra. I've definitely enjoyed some Lutra pilsners fermented in the lower 70s. It won't give you a traditional kölsch or helles, but it does make beer. If you like it then go with it.

You might have enough success with evaporative cooling using the towel to get into a reasonable range for some other yeasts too. Depends on the ambient temp and humidity. Some good suggestions above.

Agreed with @Miraculix about Belle too. Belle has way more character to me when fermented in the low 70s vs 90s. And how did this become a saison thread?!? Not complaining

Ok, then I'm saying he's wrong. There's no way you can get a beer without kveik flavour from a kveik.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Ok, then I'm saying he's wrong. There's no way you can get a beer without kveik flavour from a kveik.

That's your prerogative. The message I quoted was a person stating their experience. I refrain from speaking in absolutes or presuming I know more about someone's subjective experience than they do. I come here to share and listen and learn.

 

[Miraculix]

That's your prerogative. The message I quoted was a person stating their experience. I refrain from speaking in absolutes or presuming I know more about someone's subjective experience than they do. I come here to share and listen and learn.

Good for you mate.

 

[Tony B]

This being my third batch with lutra, I now have a sense of the “flavor” it brings. I was a little worried early on that it was oxidation, but now I realize it’s the lutra. It’s nice to not have to worry about temp and that’s where I’m at for now, but it definitely has a distinct fingerprint.

 

[Miraculix]

This being my third batch with lutra, I now have a sense of the “flavor” it brings. I was a little worried early on that it was oxidation, but now I realize it’s the lutra. It’s nice to not have to worry about temp and that’s where I’m at for now, but it definitely has a distinct fingerprint.

Yep. I can see myself using it again in the peak of summer in an American hoppy session beer. It works quite well under these conditions, when most other yeasts would fail.

 

[Shenanigans]

My girlfriend is out of town for 5 days next week and when she comes back we start with some renovations.
So no brewing for a while.
I'm working on a beer that can go from grain to keg in the 5 days she is away.
I'm thinking of a milkshake IPA with an OG of about 1.060 (plus some lactose), fermented with Voss at about 35oC.
Should hopefully be done in 4 days and if needed I can dry hop in the keg.
Hops will be Vic Secret, Citra, Mosaic and Amarillo.
Let's see how it turns out in the end

 

[rtstrider]

This being my third batch with lutra, I now have a sense of the “flavor” it brings. I was a little worried early on that it was oxidation, but now I realize it’s the lutra. It’s nice to not have to worry about temp and that’s where I’m at for now, but it definitely has a distinct fingerprint.

Do you notice any differences with repitching Lutra? Pros/Cons?

 

[Tony B]

Do you notice any differences with repitching Lutra? Pros/Cons?

I have only pitched from starters I’ve made from both dry and my frozen vials which were also made from dry. I usually dump whatever is left in the FV after packaging.
If that’s what you’re asking about, I’ve been pitching at 80-85F and having airlock activity in about 2 hours and it’s chugging away after 4-5 hours. Usually seems to be done by 36-48 hours, though I usually let it sit 5-7 days and take a gravity reading before packaging.

 

[Tony B]

I kegged a light WCIPA brewed with lutra a few weeks ago and it’s been in the keg for about a week and a half. I have a blonde ale also brewed with Lutra that has been in the keg since Saturday. I just tasted both and the IPA is definitely getting better and losing some of that Lutra flavor. Both are drinkable and it’s great to go from grain to glass in a week, but I’m starting to see the reality of why patience is so important in brewing.

 

[Miraculix]

With lutra, the kveik twang can also develop over time. I've had a red American ale once that I've brewed in the summer with lutra which was pretty clean for a kveik. Unfortunately 3 weeks in the bottle, the kveik twang started to develop and a few weeks later it was pretty upfront. Not a bad beer though.

 

[rtstrider]

I have only pitched from starters I’ve made from both dry and my frozen vials which were also made from dry. I usually dump whatever is left in the FV after packaging.
If that’s what you’re asking about, I’ve been pitching at 80-85F and having airlock activity in about 2 hours and it’s chugging away after 4-5 hours. Usually seems to be done by 36-48 hours, though I usually let it sit 5-7 days and take a gravity reading before packaging.

I was assuming you were repitching the yeast from the fermenter for a few generations. I do the same with the frozen vials